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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Ann Vole wrote:
I cannot find a review of that book nor find a copy at local library systems but I think this is the same Peggy Mason:http://video.sciencemag.org/VideoLab/1310979895001/1
knightofalbion wrote:
You think wrong, Ann Vole!

She was an author ( 'New Age Companion', 'Tales of Two Worlds' etc.) and accomplished journalist.
She was a great animal lover and vegetarian, long before it became fashionable.
She was a friend to many, including me.
She died about 15 years ago.
well, it was a journalist/animal welfare advocate showing that animals have compassion for each other and with the same name... but it was published last year so likely not the same person (it would be silly to hold on to evidence for 14 years or more before publishing an article on the results). I will try to inter-library loan the books or buy a copy... but only to get a clearer sense of what her angle is on animals and spirituality. My goal in life is to develop ways of communicating 2-way with small mammals to see how their brains work (under the hypothesis that they think a lot more like humans then given credit for) with a parallel goal of making fictional animal characters also show such human-like thinking while still living their (fictional) lives as a real animal of their species does. A big part of this goal would be to see evidence of a spiritual world connection animals may have. Some of my fiction includes spiritual-world creatures such as angels and cherubim and their communication with animals and alien life forms (the main character in one is from a different planet and decidedly non-humanoid...much like a giant flying squirrel). For this reason, it is good to see what different people say about the spiritual world and the connection with non-humans.


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:27 pm 
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knightofalbion wrote:
Adam and Noah were vegans.
my doubt on that comes from two sections: 1) the Cain and Abel story has Abel's animal sacrifice being accepted and Cain's plant-based sacrifice being rejected... so Cain killed Abel. Adam's sons were already fighting over the meat vs vegetarian issue. 2) "The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. " (Gen. 9:2-4) - this does suggest that Adam was vegetarian though but definitely puts Noah in the meat-eater category.


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:42 am 
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The Peggy Mason in the video clip is just commenting on someone else's work, not her own; and as someone employed by "Science" one hopes not a person who has written a book about New Age claptrap, and another one on a certain orangeclad guru for the adoring feeble-minded Westerners, and collector of Rolls Royces and sprinkler of "magical" ash (fat lot of good that does to poor people - couldn't he sprinkle coins instead or were these on spent on his lavish lifestyle?). And can we please stop quoting that speech by Chief Seattle which is a fraud almost from beginning to end? See http://www.fs.fed.us/eco/eco-watch/ew920221 , for instance. If you want to believe in angels and New Age fairies, fine. But they are not welcome in a serious discussion. And of course humans are more evolved - but again, the mistake is made to equate "more evolved" with "superior". Evolution has no such purpose, It happens. That's all.


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:34 am 
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Cobie wrote:
The Peggy Mason in the video clip is just commenting on someone else's work, not her own; and as someone employed by "Science" one hopes not a person who has written a book about New Age claptrap, and another one on a certain orangeclad guru for the adoring feeble-minded Westerners, and collector of Rolls Royces and sprinkler of "magical" ash (fat lot of good that does to poor people - couldn't he sprinkle coins instead or were these on spent on his lavish lifestyle?). And can we please stop quoting that speech by Chief Seattle which is a fraud almost from beginning to end? See http://www.fs.fed.us/eco/eco-watch/ew920221 , for instance. If you want to believe in angels and New Age fairies, fine. But they are not welcome in a serious discussion. And of course humans are more evolved - but again, the mistake is made to equate "more evolved" with "superior". Evolution has no such purpose, It happens. That's all.
I was hesitant to mention angels and aliens and such but realized the thread was started by knightofalbion so anything along that line is on topic for this thread. I like the story in your link. I always had doubts about that speech as I have studied the North-West coast native peoples and explored the land in the BC area (near Seattle Washington) where I assume Chief Seattle was close to (Duwamish/Suquamish lands)... still no wires or trains or even horses. The goal of evolution is just the greedy genome... the genes that survive get to reproduce again. A fly is no more or less evolved then a human... just different strategies for the respective genomes to reproduce.


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:02 am 
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Ann Vole wrote:
knightofalbion wrote:
Adam and Noah were vegans.
my doubt on that comes from two sections: 1) the Cain and Abel story has Abel's animal sacrifice being accepted and Cain's plant-based sacrifice being rejected... so Cain killed Abel. Adam's sons were already fighting over the meat vs vegetarian issue. 2) "The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. " (Gen. 9:2-4) - this does suggest that Adam was vegetarian though but definitely puts Noah in the meat-eater category.


Meat-eating only came in after the cataclysmic flood and when it did it had a catastrophic effect on human health and lifespan.
Bear in mind, that the Bible is the work of man. The biblical book of Genesis is not and was never intended to be a historically and chronologically accurate account of the advent of Adamic man.
You'll note that parts of the OT call for animal sacrifice (Do not satanists, voodooists etc. do the same?) whereas in Isaiah we are told that animal sacrifice is an abomination in the eyes of God and He never asked for or wanted these things.
[This was a central theme of the Last Supper, alas buried by the Church's corruption. God is not a monster. It is a love sacrifice (i.e. Service) that is required.]
Likewise, there are Biblical verses which call on slaves to obey their Christian masters! And slave traders used these verses to justify their evil trade. God of course does not condone slavery or the keeping of slaves, but ancient Rome existed upon slave labour so that's how these spurious interpolations came to be worked into the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I've have to disagree with you about Noah too. However much of that story you take literally, if Noah was spiritually evolved enough to have received prophetic warning he would not have resorted to eating flesh. When you reach a certain stage in your spiritual evolution and you recognise the unity of all life, you're no more inclined to want to eat animal flesh anymore than you would human flesh!

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:52 pm 
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Ann Vole wrote:
Quote:
I was hesitant to mention angels and aliens and such but realized the thread was started by knightofalbion so anything along that line is on topic for this thread. I like the story in your link. I always had doubts about that speech as I have studied the North-West coast native peoples and explored the land in the BC area (near Seattle Washington) where I assume Chief Seattle was close to (Duwamish/Suquamish lands)... still no wires or trains or even horses. The goal of evolution is just the greedy genome... the genes that survive get to reproduce again. A fly is no more or less evolved then a human... just different strategies for the respective genomes to reproduce.


Re Chief Seattle. There is no place for ego in Service or spiritual instruction. Maybe he travelled and spoke thereof? Maybe the piece was wrongy attributed to him? Either way, it is not the messenger but the message that is the important thing.
It is wise counsel, whoever said it, a warning that needs to be heeded.

An angel is more spiritually evolved than a man, a man is more spiritually evolved than a mouse - but angel, man or mouse, it is the same Spirit of the Divine that animates all three.

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Ann Vole wrote:
My goal in life is to develop ways of communicating 2-way with small mammals to see how their brains work (under the hypothesis that they think a lot more like humans then given credit for) with a parallel goal of making fictional animal characters also show such human-like thinking while still living their (fictional) lives as a real animal of their species does. A big part of this goal would be to see evidence of a spiritual world connection animals may have. Some of my fiction includes spiritual-world creatures such as angels and cherubim and their communication with animals and alien life forms (the main character in one is from a different planet and decidedly non-humanoid...much like a giant flying squirrel). For this reason, it is good to see what different people say about the spiritual world and the connection with non-humans.


How fascinating!

I have some friendly mice in my greenhouse! They often come out to say 'Hello'. I can see in their faces a great curiosity about me and I sense that they want nothing more than to be friends.


All animals that have been 'individualised' through human contact i.e. pets, will be there to greet you when 'you' pass over.

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http://holy-lance.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:39 pm 
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knightofalbion wrote:
When you reach a certain stage in your spiritual evolution and you recognise the unity of all life, you're no more inclined to want to eat animal flesh anymore than you would human flesh!


And when one reaches yet another stage of spiritual development, or they just plain come to their senses, they realize that it is moreso "how much" of something rather than "what" they eat.

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:29 am 
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Meat-eating only came in after the cataclysmic flood and when it did it had a catastrophic effect on human health and lifespan.


WHAT????

What flood? Are you suggesting that Naoh's flood actually happened? Were you home schooled?

The earth has never flooded over it's whole surface. There is no evidence of it and there would be vast un-mistakable wreckage left behind by such an event. Have you ever done any physical geography or geology?


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:52 am 
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Tim the Plumber wrote:
The earth has never flooded over it's whole surface.


You believe those who wrote of it thought the world was actually as big as it was at the time?

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Tim the Plumber wrote:
Quote:
Meat-eating only came in after the cataclysmic flood and when it did it had a catastrophic effect on human health and lifespan.


WHAT????

What flood? Are you suggesting that Naoh's flood actually happened? Were you home schooled?

The earth has never flooded over it's whole surface. There is no evidence of it and there would be vast un-mistakable wreckage left behind by such an event. Have you ever done any physical geography or geology?
Take a look at the reason ancient submerged cities are only found in the Mediterranean Sea... tsunamis wipe out all evidence of ancient cities if just the normal waves don't do it. The Mediterranean Sea flooded real quickly once water levels reached the rock of Gibraltar and cut into the rock. This ocean level rise is estimated to have happened about 8000 to 10000 years ago and about 200 meters in total. This is evolutionists coming up with this number based on genetic divergence of animals isolated from Australia after Australasia was submerged to become the islands we know today as Tasmania, New Guinea, New Zealand etc. This is not too far off the 6000 years of literal Biblical date of the flood. It of course likely never happened like the Bible details but having all human habitation near the ocean submerged would be a world-wide flood in the eyes of those people. The evidence of these ancient cities would be lost to the destructive power of the ocean.


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:39 am 
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It was a combination of various floods passed down in wildly inaccurate oral histories. Sure, the beginning interglacial ocean rise(9-11KBP) was looked at by many around the world as a "flood," to the old especially. The numerous breaks of the ice dam that caused the effects from Idaho through Washington State to the Columbia estuary area. The break of the Lake Agassiz ice dam was also witnessed(the Americas had been invaded by waves of Solutrians, 5 genotypes developed, incl. 'Indians' and 'whites' who broke off 35KBP and went to the glacier edge zone north, coming to N.Am. 998-1003AD, from northern Spain, France and western Germany, for at least 23K years, first over sea in the Atlantic, ice floe and island hopping, and later Pacific island hopping, 16-14K BP, then the land bridge opening 12K BP). The flooding from the rock dam break at the Bosporus(NOT Gibraltar) and filling of the Black Sea rapidly was Noah's flood(6,600BP), passed down and embellished in oral history. Various tsunamis were floods to many other cultures. Some flood stories were combined, like from the Santorini volcanic eruption that destroyed the Minoan civilization 3,620BP, which became combined with the Black Sea flood, and also gave rise to Atlantis legends.
The idea that humans were not evolved as omnivores is a garbage theory of some vegetarians. Humans have eaten meat for as long as they have existed, 7 million years for proto humans and 100,000 years for more modern humans. Some tribes had the majority of their diets in meat while others it was a majority of nuts, grains, fruits, and vegetables. Some had better nutrition than others, and with it better disease resistance and health. The mono diet tribes tended toward lower development and health problems, vitamin and or mineral deficiencies.

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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
The flooding from the rock dam break at the Bosporus(NOT Gibraltar) and filling of the Black Sea rapidly...
Ah I should be more specific. The Mediterranean was flooded much earlier (and submerging even older cities then the 10K years) but the fill was through a river when the ocean was lower and the gap in Gibraltar was narrow at that lower point. My point in referring to this was the comment that we should have seen the massive destruction of a flood but history shows that fast floods leave cities intact but slow level rise such as the 200 m seen in Australia area will destroy all evidence of cultures along the shore. I was not intending to suggest the Mediterranean flooding in particular was the Biblical flood event (happened much earlier... although the level did rise a lot and changed the location of cities in the process... still happened over centuries or decades rather then weeks (like the Black Sea flooding event)


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 Post subject: Re: Animal Evolution
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:06 pm 
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All around the world human coastal villages and more were inundated after the beginning of this interglacial epoch. It is too bad that most are ruined by being covered in organisms, decayed, eroded away with currents, or covered in sand. The huge steps off of Japan are interesting. Seemingly hand carved and older than sand buried cities in Egypt and elsewhere.
Still, the anthropological history lost is tremendous. The Black Sea is different in that its deep covered ruins are more preserved through special conditions**, not just fast flooding. Also, they are not a picture of what was going on in Asia at that time, for example.
When you think of it, even on land, preservation is a rarity. Fossils and other evidence preservation took special circumstances to form and we certainly have not dug up all of them, or those buried in the ocean sediments. Subduction processes have erased much. While it is amazing the facts and pictures of past life and conditions that we do have, it is tempered by knowing it is incomplete and probably never will be complete.
**Anoxic conditions;
http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/education ... ones.shtml

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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