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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:05 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
There was a time when science, as we understood it at the time, didn't offer evidence of a flat earth.

[/quote]
Science still doesn't offer evidence of a flat earth so I don't understand the point you're making here.

Fosgate wrote:
It is rather directed at those who would suggest something--anything--doesn't exist due to the lack of scientific evidence.

I lack scientific evidence for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But I'm inclined to think it doesn't exist.
I feel the same way any supernatural entity.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:05 am 
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This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss His butt?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the Desk of Karl

1.Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list Himself.
6.The moon is made of green cheese.
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8.Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't use alcohol.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 am 
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Moral of the story:

Christ has died for the world's sins, so don't worry about suarkraut.

Thought I'd help you with that story, Wayne. :angel: O:)


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:28 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
There was a time when science, as we understood it at the time, didn't offer evidence of a flat earth.


Science still doesn't offer evidence of a flat earth so I don't understand the point you're making here.[/quote]

My bad. Spherical.

Quote:
I lack scientific evidence for the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But I'm inclined to think it doesn't exist.


I lack scientific evidence for alot of things. Sometimes it affects how I make decisions and what I believe, sometimes it doesn't.

Quote:
I feel the same way any supernatural entity.


If that's where you draw the line, so be it, but don't try to tell me there is no line.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
My bad. Spherical.

Kinda thought so.
It's been known to be round for a good long time.
But no biggie.
Quote:
I feel the same way any supernatural entity.


Fosgate wrote:
If that's where you draw the line, so be it, but don't try to tell me there is no line.

For me, there is no line and I'm not trying to tell that there is one. I'm just telling you how I see it. I wouldn't in any way shape or form deign to tell you or anyone else what to believe.

My take.
We are all born atheists. What religious beliefs one takes is mostly a matter of the culture of where you were born or live.
Had I been born in the middle east, my culture might have espoused a belief in Allah rather than the Christian faith of western societies.
But I just don't believe in any supernatural entity. I'm an atheist.
I have no better reason to believe in a Christian god or any other than I have for belief in the FSM.
My view is that neither exists.
Hence my position.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
But no biggie.


Would you have mocked Galileo or accepted his notions, until proven, on faith?

Quote:
We are all born atheists.


Agnostic, technically.

Quote:
But I just don't believe in any supernatural entity. I'm an atheist.


What do you believe in that isn't supported by science?

Quote:
Hence my position.


That's fine. The line about which I speak is that of belief in general. Doesn't have to be in a god or some supernatural being, but it's still there.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:

That's fine. The line about which I speak is that of belief in general. Doesn't have to be in a god or some supernatural being, but it's still there.


I appreciate your polite response.

I have no belief in any supernatural entity thus, for me, there is no line.
A line suggests a division of one thing from another.
For me, there is no such division. No line. No such construct.
I don't know how to better explain what there is nothing to explain.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:22 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
I don't know how to better explain what there is nothing to explain.


I understand what you're saying with regard to the supernatural. Where I'm driving though is that we have a point in which you and everyone else applies belief, faith, or takes risks in forming opinions, drawing conclusions, or making decisions with less than a desirable amount of data, facts, or established science.

Perhaps you have truly never been wrong, never made mistakes. Maybe you have only fallen on the unlikely side of statistics in some matters.

You may not be inclined to believe in the flying spaghetti monster. All the same, I'm inclined to believe that you harbor belief of some form. Everyone has their limits. Your's simply falls such that there can be none in the supernatural. That said, who's to say how much is too much or too little?

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:

Would you have mocked Galileo or accepted his notions, until proven, on faith?

I'm not mocking anyone or anything so I'm not sure what basis you have for framing your question in that way.
But no, I don't believe I would have mocked Galileo. Nor Peter Higgs.
I use a fair bit of applied science.Theories that I can prove. Do I take those on faith? Not really.
I use them because they work. Time after time. I can't prove why gravity does what it does. But I have convincing evidence from my use of it in calculations that it is quite predictable.
Is that faith? I don't think so. Faith might better attributed to something you can neither prove nor replicate. A deity for example.

Fosgate wrote:
Quote:
We are all born atheists.

Agnostic, technically.

From Wikipedia:
"In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist."
I don't think anyone can be sufficiently cognisant at birth to be born with that opinion already . So, I'll stick to my comment that we are all born atheists. We have no belief in anything, far less the supernatural.

Fosgate wrote:
What do you believe in that isn't supported by science?

Quite a lot, I suppose.
I believe that dinner tonight will as excellent as usual.
I believe that the pretty plants we re-potted today will do just fine.

Image

No scientific evidence to support either. Just experience of things that have been replicated in the past.
Either could turn out to be wrong.
I don't think that's faith.

Fosgate wrote:
The line about which I speak is that of belief in general. Doesn't have to be in a god or some supernatural being, but it's still there.

A line infers some things on one side of it and some things on the other.
I see no such line.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Besoeker wrote:
I don't know how to better explain what there is nothing to explain.


I understand what you're saying with regard to the supernatural. Where I'm driving though is that we have a point in which you and everyone else applies belief, faith, or takes risks in forming opinions, drawing conclusions, or making decisions with less than a desirable amount of data, facts, or established science.

Yes. We make decisions based on what we know or what we think we know.
If I bid for a project, I may have some idea of where it needs to be pitched based on past experience. If I have a good relationship with the prospective customer I may get some hints.
That isn't science. Or faith. But decision making all the same. With risks.

Fosgate wrote:
Perhaps you have truly never been wrong, never made mistakes.

As my late great friend Tommy used to say the man who never made a mistake never made anything.
I've done both.

Fosgate wrote:
You may not be inclined to believe in the flying spaghetti monster. All the same, I'm inclined to believe that you harbor belief of some form. Everyone has their limits. Your's simply falls such that there can be none in the supernatural.

Not quite what I posted.
I don't believe in the supernatural. I don't reject the possibility that it might exist.
Improbable in my opinion but I do not assert that it's impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:58 pm 
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I think I will go kick Hank's butt! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:58 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Tim the Plumber wrote:

I can see why I am banging my head against a brick wall.

Faith is what you believe inspite of the facts. (Origonally said by me)

The optical effects of the atmosphere can be freaky under freaky conditions. Did your father often comunicate via such optical effects?


No, faith is what you believe when there are no facts. Denial is what you believe in spite of the facts.

I had an incident similar to Johnny once. I have a Model 1922 Belgain Browning which was a war trophy from WWII. It was liberated from a German officer and made its way back to the US. It had been damaged in combat and repaired by a gunsmith which had caused the barrel bushing to be modified by the addition of two screws to hold it in place, but other than that it was a nice old gun. A gun my grandfather finally gave to me before he died.

At one point I had reason to discharge the weapon. The report sounded a little odd but I could not identify a problem. There was a live round in the chamber and that indicated the action had cycled. I proceeded to fire the weapon again, but there was no discharge. I manually cycled the action and removed the round while replacing it with the next one in the magazine. There was an indentation in the primer from the firing pin, although not a deep as I felt it should have been. A second attempt in firing had the same results as the first. I cleared the magazine and chamber and flipped the pistol up to remove the screws holding the barrel bushing. only to catch a glimpse of color from the end of the barrel. The first shot had not pushed the bullet out of the barrel. If the second shot had fired the bullet would have impcated the obstruction and caused the gun to come apart either the barrel, slide, or both would have shattered due to the energy needing release.

I removed the screws, barrel bushing, and the slide from the pistol and using a wooden dowel, I pushed the bullet from the end of the barrel. I reinstalled the slide, barrel busing and screws, reloaded the magazine, including the two rounds that would not fire previously and prepared to fire the pistol again. I emptied the magazine into the target without a bit of trouble. The indentation on the primer of each of the spent rounds were all the same except for the two rounds which did not fire the first attempt. Those two rounds had two indentations instead of one.

The odds of a misfire are not high, but they are not so low as to ignore either. The odds of having a misfire follwed by two more failed shots are high, but not out of the realm of belief. The odds of having the two previously failed rounds work perfectly just after the barrel obstruction was cleared is approaching the realm of disbelief, however. While the situtation was not impossible as a random event in the universe, the probability is way up there for that not happening. In any case, my grandfather's pistol will never leave the family nor will it never be treated with full repsect and care as my grandfather would want.


The action of "catching" the bullet in the barrel could not have moved the barrel a little forward thus making the firing pin not fully strike? I ask because the barrel sounds like it needed extra screws to hold it in place already.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:07 am 
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Tim the Plumber wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Tim the Plumber wrote:

I can see why I am banging my head against a brick wall.

Faith is what you believe inspite of the facts. (Origonally said by me)

The optical effects of the atmosphere can be freaky under freaky conditions. Did your father often comunicate via such optical effects?


No, faith is what you believe when there are no facts. Denial is what you believe in spite of the facts.

I had an incident similar to Johnny once. I have a Model 1922 Belgain Browning which was a war trophy from WWII. It was liberated from a German officer and made its way back to the US. It had been damaged in combat and repaired by a gunsmith which had caused the barrel bushing to be modified by the addition of two screws to hold it in place, but other than that it was a nice old gun. A gun my grandfather finally gave to me before he died.

At one point I had reason to discharge the weapon. The report sounded a little odd but I could not identify a problem. There was a live round in the chamber and that indicated the action had cycled. I proceeded to fire the weapon again, but there was no discharge. I manually cycled the action and removed the round while replacing it with the next one in the magazine. There was an indentation in the primer from the firing pin, although not a deep as I felt it should have been. A second attempt in firing had the same results as the first. I cleared the magazine and chamber and flipped the pistol up to remove the screws holding the barrel bushing. only to catch a glimpse of color from the end of the barrel. The first shot had not pushed the bullet out of the barrel. If the second shot had fired the bullet would have impcated the obstruction and caused the gun to come apart either the barrel, slide, or both would have shattered due to the energy needing release.

I removed the screws, barrel bushing, and the slide from the pistol and using a wooden dowel, I pushed the bullet from the end of the barrel. I reinstalled the slide, barrel busing and screws, reloaded the magazine, including the two rounds that would not fire previously and prepared to fire the pistol again. I emptied the magazine into the target without a bit of trouble. The indentation on the primer of each of the spent rounds were all the same except for the two rounds which did not fire the first attempt. Those two rounds had two indentations instead of one.

The odds of a misfire are not high, but they are not so low as to ignore either. The odds of having a misfire follwed by two more failed shots are high, but not out of the realm of belief. The odds of having the two previously failed rounds work perfectly just after the barrel obstruction was cleared is approaching the realm of disbelief, however. While the situtation was not impossible as a random event in the universe, the probability is way up there for that not happening. In any case, my grandfather's pistol will never leave the family nor will it never be treated with full repsect and care as my grandfather would want.


The action of "catching" the bullet in the barrel could not have moved the barrel a little forward thus making the firing pin not fully strike? I ask because the barrel sounds like it needed extra screws to hold it in place already.


The barrel does not move in relation to the slide where the firing pin is located. The barrel busshing holds both together in relation to each other.There are no screws to hold the barrel in place but a very large teeth-like assembly. One of the two lugs on the barrel bushing (P057330) had been damaged by a bullet strike. The damage to the end of the slide had been repaired but the lug was not considered strong enough to be safe so there were two screws added through the slide and into the barrel bushing. The gun had been used in the war for some time after based on the wear on the finish at the repair. My grandfather shot the gun for 2-3 decades after that.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:11 am 
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The part PO57288 (or at least the part next to the number), the bit above the triger where the grips on the bottom of the barrel engage with the body of the pistol, is connected to the slide by the slide being attached to the body of the gun. The diagram shows no direct connection between the slide and the barrel. Even if there was on an old gun whcih had had to have additional screws fitted to keep the thing together the two parts could have been pulled slightly appart by the event of the bullet's momentum being transferd to the barrel. Something like a hammer blow.

I would strongly advise you to never use the thing again and always clean any weapon after using it making sure to use the appropriate specialist wire brush to clean deposits of explosive residue from inside the barrel. Cleaning before might be a good idea as well.

You can see why there is an impression of Americans being well meaning triger happy idiots in the world.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:59 am 
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The slide fits into groves on the receiver and cannot be removed other than going forward or backward on a plane parallel to the receiver. The barrel fits inside the slide and prevents it from being removed once the barrel bushing is installed and rotated so the lugs lock into place. The design is similar to most pistols to allow them to be field stripped without the need for tools. The barrel bushing prevents the barrel from moving up or down due to it being attached to the slide, which has the aforementioned groves. The barrel cannot ,move forward or backward due to the groves in the receiver that interlock with groves in the barrel. It has to be removed vertically, which is prevented by the connection to the slide. When the weapon is fired the slide is forced back by a small portion of the force generated by the gunpowder as the bullet is projected out the barrel. When the slide is forced back the expended casing is ejected and when the slide slams home it carries another bullet with it to engage in the chamber and is then ready to fire. When fired there is an amount of force generated to push the bullet out of the barrel at high speed. In this case there was insufficient force to do that and the slug did not exit the barrel. Thus, there was less force exerted on the weapon than usual, not more. The slug is scored all around by the rifling of the barrel which creates resistance and in this case there was more resistance than force. I had to put some pressure on the slug to push it out of the barrel, which is why it was dangerous. A second slug impacting it would have blocked the barrel and the energy would have been redirected, probably toward the rear of the weapon where my hand was.

The pistol was checked by a military gunsmith prior to being brought home, my grandfather had it checked by a local gunsmith prior to giving it to me, but I have not had it checked since. I have fired military Model 1911A's still in use that literally rattled when shaken while this pistol is still tight as a drum.

As for the impression you mention, many impressions based upon ignorance are often incorrect and given your "in depth" knowledge of how a firearm works, I believe there is sufficient ignorance exhibited.

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