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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
That's the consensus. Are you willing to accept that we could be wrong on that?

That murder might be OK?
No way.


What proof do you have that this is the correct perspective?

Quote:
I'm assuming nothing about any deity.


Indeed you are. You're assuming that they would stop bad things from happening if indeed they existed, were all-powerful, and benevolent. This is, at least in part, your justification in believing that such a thing does not exist in the first place. You do buy your own argument, right?

Quote:
If what a person is going to do is long known before they exist what part of that decision is theirs rather than predetermined?


I've always maintained that choice is an illusion created by those with power for those who have none. I've mainly applied it to governments, but it works with a diety too I suppose.

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Fosgate wrote:
Really? I’d like to see you say that to their faces.

Misses the point.


When the point is overwhelmed by such a lack of compassion topped with a judgement on who should and and shouldn’t have been born, no, it’s not missed, it just takes a back seat.

Quote:
Bearing children into a society where starvation is a fairly likely fate for many really isn't really a very good outcome. Better that contraception measures are put in place to avoid this in the first place. But sometimes religion and beliefs get in the way of that.


Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
The question is, what are we doing about it and more importantly, is it even working?

Suggesting abstinence. That clearly isn't working.


It often does not. Though I seriously doubt this is a root problem in overpopulated 3rd world countries. At any rate, what’s being done about the solutions not working?

Quote:
As a scientist, I'm sure you understand the distinction.


I do. I also lean toward the optimistic side of things. There is good in the world.

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
I don't presume to know what an omnipotent being wants.

Nor do I.


Then why limit the hypothetical to all-powerful, benevolent Gods that would stop all evil from occurring? Are the same that allow their children to make their own choices just too far-fetched to fathom?

It goes back to my unanswered questions on parenting. Would you or would you not allow your child to fail if it was ultimately better for them to do so?

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Quote:
That murder might be OK?
No way.

What proof do you have that this is the correct perspective?

Quote:
Do you think that it might be OK?


Quote:
I'm assuming nothing about any deity.


Fosgate wrote:
Indeed you are. You're assuming that they would stop bad things from happening if indeed they existed, were all-powerful, and benevolent.

I'm making no such assumption about any such entity.
You still can't seem to grasp that my stance is that no such entity exists thus I can't make assumptions about it.
And you are still making assumptions about my assumptions. Not very scientific, that.

Fosgate wrote:
Really? I’d like to see you say that to their faces.

Quote:
Misses the point.



Fosgate wrote:
When the point is overwhelmed by such a lack of compassion topped with a judgement on who should and and shouldn’t have been born, no, it’s not missed, it just takes a back seat.

I didn't say they shouldn't be born. Please don't misrepresent what I posted.
But do you think that bearing children into a society where starvation is a fairly likely fate for many really is really a very good outcome that shows any kind of compassion? Either to that child or its siblings who then have to share inadequate food resources with yet another? Where's the compassion in that?

Fosgate wrote:
There is good in the world.

Indeed there is.



Fosgate wrote:
Quote:
]I don't presume to know what an omnipotent being wants.

Nor do I.


Fosgate wrote:
Then why limit the hypothetical to all-powerful, benevolent Gods that would stop all evil from occurring?

I have no hypothetical gods. No gods. Period. I'm an atheist.

Fosgate wrote:
It goes back to my unanswered questions on parenting. Would you or would you not allow your child to fail if it was ultimately better for them to do so?

I thought I did answer your original point about that on the merits or otherwise of suffering. The question as posed then has no specific answer. Nor does it now.
Fail at what though?
Achieving the required grades to get to university?
Fail to respond to medical treatment for an otherwise terminal illness?
Fail to pass the driving test?

Can you give examples of what kind of failure would benefit them?


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Indeed you are. You're assuming that they would stop bad things from happening if indeed they existed, were all-powerful, and benevolent.

I'm making no such assumption about any such entity.
You still can't seem to grasp that my stance is that no such entity exists thus I can't make assumptions about it.
And you are still making assumptions about my assumptions. Not very scientific, that.


I beg your pardon. Your's are clear. What assumptions am I making? :eh:

Quote:
I didn't say they shouldn't be born.
You said:
Quote:
Better that they weren't born in the first place.


I understand now. You have nothing against them being born until they're born. If that makes any sense to you, I say run with it, as fast as you can. :crazy:

Quote:
Please don't misrepresent what I posted.


Yes, sorry about that. I was apparently granting more credit than was due. #-o

Quote:
But do you think that bearing children into a society where starvation is a fairly likely fate for many really is really a very good outcome that shows any kind of compassion? Either to that child or its siblings who then have to share inadequate food resources with yet another? Where's the compassion in that?


We did agree earlier that people do bad things, and that there are bad people in the world. I say the compassion is rather absent here.

Quote:
I have no hypothetical gods. No gods. Period. I'm an atheist.


Alright. If there was no evil in the world, would you still be an atheist?

Fosgate wrote:
I thought I did answer your original point about that on the merits or otherwise of suffering. The question as posed then has no specific answer. Nor does it now.


Sure it does. The answer is "yes". Of course you'd allow your child to learn on their own, when appropriate and/or convenient.

Quote:
Can you give examples of what kind of failure would benefit them?


Not putting gas in the car before a road trip. Mis-measuring the coffee grounds when making a pot of coffee. Failing to use sunscreen, once at least, when spending a day at the beach. Wearing uncomfortable shoes. Wearing no gloves while doing yard work. Dressing warmly on a cold day. Being the last one to take a shower. Failing to use sufficient postage.

Lessons learned, no?

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:09 am 
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Fosgate wrote:
I beg your pardon. Your's are clear. What assumptions am I making? :eh:

You stated:
"You're assuming that they would stop bad things from happening"
I'm making no such assumption thus yours was in incorrect assumption.
QED.


Quote:
But do you think that bearing children into a society where starvation is a fairly likely fate for many really is really a very good outcome that shows any kind of compassion? Either to that child or its siblings who then have to share inadequate food resources with yet another? Where's the compassion in that?


Fosgate wrote:
We did agree earlier that people do bad things, and that there are bad people in the world. I say the compassion is rather absent here.

So what would you do to fix it? If you could?

Quote:
I have no hypothetical gods. No gods. Period. I'm an atheist.


Fosgate wrote:
If there was no evil in the world, would you still be an atheist?

Yes.

Quote:
I thought I did answer your original point about that on the merits or otherwise of suffering. The question as posed then has no specific answer. Nor does it now.


Fosgate wrote:
Sure it does. The answer is "yes". Of course you'd allow your child to learn on their own, when appropriate and/or convenient.

But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering.
Do you?


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:11 am 
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Besoeker wrote:

But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering.
Do you?


In the case of my younger son and higher mathematics, yes, I would equate it to suffering for all involved. He got his mother's artistic streak and math comprehension.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:02 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
I beg your pardon. Your's are clear. What assumptions am I making? :eh:

You stated:
"You're assuming that they would stop bad things from happening"
I'm making no such assumption thus yours was in incorrect assumption.
QED.


#-o That wasn't an assumption. That statement was made in response to your point that there was no all-powerful, benevolent diety, in part, because such a diety would stop bad things from happening. This assumes some knowledge of deities that might or do exist.

Quote:
So what would you do to fix it? If you could?


I'm not convinced that it can be fixed.

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
If there was no evil in the world, would you still be an atheist?

Yes.


You seem to be rather certain of things despite the lack of evidence one way or another.

Quote:
But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering. Do you?


Depends on the lesson learned and what you mean by suffering. Suffering could be mere inconvenience or discomfort. It’d be like the time I bought a lemon. I knew I did, but I wanted this car so bad it didn’t matter. It broke down on the highway and I ended up having to walk for miles, 85 degrees F and 90% humidity, in the dark, to the nearest phone. I had the car 3 months and all of a sudden, I had to get another. I got really good at buying used vehicles afterwards.

Washing my hands after playing with the cat keeps me from going into a sneezing fit.

Kidney stones would definitely qualify as suffering. I learned very quickly that a decent fluid intake, for me, is a trip to the head about once an hour.

We're not talking life threatening stuff here, just serious enough for there to be consequences and something learned the hard way.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:41 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Besoeker wrote:

But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering.
Do you?


In the case of my younger son and higher mathematics, yes, I would equate it to suffering for all involved. He got his mother's artistic streak and math comprehension.

That's a shame. I suppose I was lucky in that area. I helped my children (and sometimes half the neighbourhood it seemed) with mathematics and science subjects.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Besoeker wrote:

But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering.
Do you?


In the case of my younger son and higher mathematics, yes, I would equate it to suffering for all involved. He got his mother's artistic streak and math comprehension.

That's a shame. I suppose I was lucky in that area. I helped my children (and sometimes half the neighbourhood it seemed) with mathematics and science subjects.



Me too. I am the reason my wife passed high school algebra. My younger son would not accept my help. I know I am not the best of teachers, but even looking over his work was a fight. Moreso when I had to point out it was wrong and needed to be corrected. He would have rather turned it in and received a bad grade than have me show him it was wrong. I was doing beginning algebra in the 5th grade when my teacher noticed I was bored with long division and was looking out the window. When I knew the answer to the question she asked she gave us 10 problems to try for additional experience that night as homework. They were reading problems and challenged me so I enjoyed it. I also got them all correct. That was when the results of my IQ tests were first discussed in the parent teacher conferences following. The school guidance counsellor had assumed there had been a typographical error in the record because the result was so far out of line with the rest of the students but my extra work was used to show her the results were accurate and that I needed advanced placement. We moved to another location before the wheels had turned. The only advanced work I was able to get was admission to college summer semesters starting the summer before my junior year of high school. I had completed my first year of college English before I took senior English in high school. My english teacher was not happy with me because I had done so much more than the class would be doing and I was bored.

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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
That wasn't an assumption. That statement was made in response to your point that there was no all-powerful, benevolent diety, in part, because such a diety would stop bad things from happening.

Actually it wasn't what I stated.
An omnipotent god, if such exists, could take care of such things.
Big difference.
Since I don't believe in any supernatural entity it would quite unreasonable for me to comment on what they would do. And I didn't.


Fosgate wrote:
You seem to be rather certain of things despite the lack of evidence one way or another.

If there is a lack of evidence of a supernatural omnipotent entity, what reason would I have for believing in one?

Apologies I have submitted this twice.
My previous attempt seems to have gone AWOL.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Actually it wasn't what I stated.
An omnipotent god, if such exists, could take care of such things.
Big difference.
Since I don't believe in any supernatural entity it would quite unreasonable for me to comment on what they would do. And I didn't.


Unfortunately, you did already. If a deity could perform action X, doesn't, and one concludes that the deity doesn't exist based on the fact that X doesn't happen, then one is assuming that the deity would if they existed.

Quote:
If there is a lack of evidence of a supernatural omnipotent entity, what reason would I have for believing in one?


Depends. What you are willing to accept as evidence?

Quote:
Apologies I have submitted this twice.
My previous attempt seems to have gone AWOL.


It happens, alot. No problem at all. Enjoy the rest of your day.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Unfortunately, you did already. If a deity could perform action X, doesn't, and one concludes that the deity doesn't exist based on the fact that X doesn't happen, then one is assuming that the deity would if they existed.

Not so. I'm making no assumptions whatsoever about what a deity would do since I have no belief whatsoever that any such deity exists.
I'm simply making the point that, if a a supernatural omnipotent entity did exist, they/it could do anything. Including preventing starvation.
I'm puting that point to suggest that no such entity exists. Not what they would do if they did.



Quote:
If there is a lack of evidence of a supernatural omnipotent entity, what reason would I have for believing in one?


Fosgate wrote:
Depends. What you are willing to accept as evidence?

Absolutely anything that can be objectively replicated and objectively documented by unbiased observers.
If there is such, I'm not sure about your reason for posting a comment about lack of evidence either way.

Fosgate wrote:
Enjoy the rest of your day.

Different time zone. There is not much rest of the day. Approximately 22:00 here.
But thank you for your kind words.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:37 am 
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But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering.
Do you?[/quote]

In the case of my younger son and higher mathematics, yes, I would equate it to suffering for all involved. He got his mother's artistic streak and math comprehension.[/quote]
That's a shame. I suppose I was lucky in that area. I helped my children (and sometimes half the neighbourhood it seemed) with mathematics and science subjects.[/quote]


Me too. I am the reason my wife passed high school algebra. My younger son would not accept my help. I know I am not the best of teachers, but even looking over his work was a fight. Moreso when I had to point out it was wrong and needed to be corrected. He would have rather turned it in and received a bad grade than have me show him it was wrong. I was doing beginning algebra in the 5th grade when my teacher noticed I was bored with long division and was looking out the window. When I knew the answer to the question she asked she gave us 10 problems to try for additional experience that night as homework. They were reading problems and challenged me so I enjoyed it. I also got them all correct. That was when the results of my IQ tests were first discussed in the parent teacher conferences following. The school guidance counsellor had assumed there had been a typographical error in the record because the result was so far out of line with the rest of the students but my extra work was used to show her the results were accurate and that I needed advanced placement. We moved to another location before the wheels had turned. The only advanced work I was able to get was admission to college summer semesters starting the summer before my junior year of high school. I had completed my first year of college English before I took senior English in high school. My english teacher was not happy with me because I had done so much more than the class would be doing and I was bored.[/quote]

Sounds like you were bored. Curriculum across the country ... and even across the continent, is the same. It is homogenized. You would have been better off educated outside the public system.

The history of public education .... as an edifice of sorts, an institution, a philosophy, an accepted form of organization .... is just that. Many kids are falling throught the cracks.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:03 am 
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#-o That wasn't an assumption. That statement was made in response to your point that there was no all-powerful, benevolent diety, in part, because such a diety would stop bad things from happening. This assumes some knowledge of deities that might or do exist.

Quote:
So what would you do to fix it? If you could?


I'm not convinced that it can be fixed.

Quote:
Fosgate wrote:
If there was no evil in the world, would you still be an atheist?

Yes.


Quote:
Ahem ... excuse me but ... there is actually no such thing as 'good' other than our judgement of it. And of course, if you reverse this statement, there can be no such thing as "bad" either. I've asked you this question before and I will ask again ... because it is a question worth asking ..... why have beliefs at all? Why have belief ...


You seem to be rather certain of things despite the lack of evidence one way or another.

Quote:
But I wouldn't equate learning with suffering. Do you?


Depends on the lesson learned and what you mean by suffering. Suffering could be mere inconvenience or discomfort. It’d be like the time I bought a lemon. I knew I did, but I wanted this car so bad it didn’t matter. It broke down on the highway and I ended up having to walk for miles, 85 degrees F and 90% humidity, in the dark, to the nearest phone. I had the car 3 months and all of a sudden, I had to get another. I got really good at buying used vehicles afterwards.

Washing my hands after playing with the cat keeps me from going into a sneezing fit.

Kidney stones would definitely qualify as suffering. I learned very quickly that a decent fluid intake, for me, is a trip to the head about once an hour.

We're not talking life threatening stuff here, just serious enough for there to be consequences and something learned the hard way.[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:33 am 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Unfortunately, you did already. If a deity could perform action X, doesn't, and one concludes that the deity doesn't exist based on the fact that X doesn't happen, then one is assuming that the deity would if they existed.

Not so. I'm making no assumptions whatsoever about what a deity would do since I have no belief whatsoever that any such deity exists.
I'm simply making the point that, if a a supernatural omnipotent entity did exist, they/it could do anything. Including preventing starvation.
I'm puting that point to suggest that no such entity exists. Not what they would do if they did.


Alright, then you're simply not making any sense. Starvation could continue whether or not there was an omnipotent being capable of stopping it.

Quote:
Quote:
If there is a lack of evidence of a supernatural omnipotent entity, what reason would I have for believing in one?


Fosgate wrote:
Depends. What you are willing to accept as evidence?

Absolutely anything that can be objectively replicated and objectively documented by unbiased observers.
[/quote]

Good luck finding those.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Alright, then you're simply not making any sense. Starvation could continue whether or not there was an omnipotent being capable of stopping it.

Not my point. Starvation continues. A supernatural, omnipotent omnibenovelent entity, if such existed could stop it.
But, that it continues in huge numbers every day is, at the very least, evidence that no such supernatural, omnipotent omnibenovelent entity exists.

Fosgate wrote:
Depends. What you are willing to accept as evidence?

Quote:
Absolutely anything that can be objectively replicated and objectively documented by unbiased observers.

Fosgate wrote:
Good luck finding those.

With that comment, I think we both know where we stand.
I'll accept absolutely anything that can be objectively replicated and objectively documented by unbiased observers.
You're comment suggest that you have no such evidence.
And that's fine with me.


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