EnviroLink Forum

Community • Ecology • Connection
It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:37 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 157 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:44 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Quote:
I have evidence of the probability that it will be good.


Other than how you feel about dinner, what evidence is that? That it gets served? That it exists? We're talking "goodness" here, a concept just as abstract as a supernatural God. Either way, it boils down to "if you say so."

Besoeker wrote:
By contrast, you seem to have no consistently repeatable evidence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenovelent entity. Or any evidence at all.


Yes, in fact I do, and it has been discovered by countless others. I'll tell you the same thing I told Wayne, it's similar to love. If you've never experienced it, then you have no idea what it is or that it even exists. Many people in the world exprience love. Many people also experience God. It's okay if you haven't. I hope you do eventually but I must also accept that you may never. Some folks never experience love either. It's the way of the world.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:27 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I do trust you to believe in whatever you wish to based on whatever criteria you choose. You do not have to have a reason, scientific or otherwise, to believe how you choose, but the inverse also holds true if someone does not wish to believe in anything for which they can be given no evidence other than the belief of another.


Indeed. What you believe--how you believe--is your business.

Quote:
I am unsure of the whole situation, but I do know that I have never seen any evidence to indicate anything conclusively supernatural. I have seen things I cannot explain, but my inability does not make it supernatural. It does not mean any of us are wrong, just that we are using differing criteria to guide us.


Ever felt the presence of anything when there was nothing there? Not talking ghosts or anything like that, but more of a positive thing. Not talking something in the room with you either but rather within you.

Quote:
I know of several scientists who are religious and reconcile their beliefs with science by merely considering science as God's laws which he created and the universe follows. There is no evidence to support that view, but it is their belief and it works for them.


Works for me.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Last edited by Fosgate on Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:29 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20354
Location: Southeastern US
So as long as we view a supernatural entity as an indeterminate human feeling or emotion and not a true entity that impacts the universe as a whole we can all agree. That would seem to change the definition of the supernatural entity as claimed in the organized beliefs, but whatever works.

It cannot be directly compared to love as there are specific physical changes in relation to love which can be measured by science, just as good can be quantiifed by measurements. The impact of the belief may have certain factors which can also be measured in humans, but the impact of a belief is not evidence of the accuracy of said belief.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:54 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Wayne Stollings wrote:
So as long as we view a supernatural entity as an indeterminate human feeling or emotion and not a true entity that impacts the universe as a whole we can all agree. That would seem to change the definition of the supernatural entity as claimed in the organized beliefs, but whatever works.


That is the best way science can define it.

Quote:
It cannot be directly compared to love as there are specific physical changes in relation to love which can be measured by science


Emotional effects, which are essentially what we're talking about (i.e. the limbic system), can be measured despite nature of the stimuli. Many a Christian has wept over their faith or lack of and gotten just as emotional as someone who's lost a loved one. Adults crying over nothing? I don't buy that.

Quote:
, just as good can be quantiifed by measurements.


If "they" say so and we trust them at their word, sure. Aside from you being able to see the food, how is that any different from measuring how many people think God exists?

Quote:
but the impact of a belief is not evidence of the accuracy of said belief.


Then what's it there for?

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20354
Location: Southeastern US
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
So as long as we view a supernatural entity as an indeterminate human feeling or emotion and not a true entity that impacts the universe as a whole we can all agree. That would seem to change the definition of the supernatural entity as claimed in the organized beliefs, but whatever works.


That is the best way science can define it.
Quote:
It cannot be directly compared to love as there are specific physical changes in relation to love which can be measured by science


Emotional effects, which are essentially what we're talking about (i.e. the limbic system), can be measured despite nature of the stimuli. Many a Christian has wept over their faith or lack of and gotten just as emotional as someone who's lost a loved one. Adults crying over nothing? I don't buy that.


But the emotional effects you use as an example are not different from other unrelated emotionall stimuli and thus are not evidence of a difference. Crying is a response related to being happy, sad, unstable, and hormonal imbalances so it can be the result of nothing emotional or nothing physical.

Quote:
Quote:
, just as good can be quantiifed by measurements.


If "they" say so and we trust them at their word, sure.


No, we can measure brain responses to good food or other positive stimuli giving pleasure to the person.

Quote:
Aside from you being able to see the food, how is that any different from measuring how many people think God exists?


That is the error in your position. It matters not whether people think something exists but whether that something actually has evideince to support it existing. People can think many things which are not supportable by evidence. There are people who think someone is innocent of a crime eventhough there is massive amounts of evidence to counter that thought. All it takes is the ability to disbelieve what you wish to.

Quote:
Quote:
but the impact of a belief is not evidence of the accuracy of said belief.


Then what's it there for?


The gratification of the invidual? No reason? Peer pressure? Mass suggestion? Space aliens trying to control our minds?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:23 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Emotional effects, which are essentially what we're talking about (i.e. the limbic system), can be measured despite nature of the stimuli. Many a Christian has wept over their faith or lack of and gotten just as emotional as someone who's lost a loved one. Adults crying over nothing? I don't buy that.


But the emotional effects you use as an example are not different from other unrelated emotionall stimuli and thus are not evidence of a difference.


That's what I'm saying--that there is no difference between those effects and those originating from what I think we can agree exists--love.

Quote:
Crying is a response related to being happy, sad, unstable, and hormonal imbalances so it can be the result of nothing emotional or nothing physical.


It can happen for no reason or in some cases, at will, but we're talking about it being the result of something that is quite obviously emotional, predictable, and not necessarily the result of other factors lending to same.

Quote:
No, we can measure brain responses to good food or other positive stimuli giving pleasure to the person.


You can measure responses when one speaks (or hears) of an afterlife, God, or other supernatural, positive stimuli that also give one pleasure. You may not understand why it but it’s a measureable reaction either way nonetheless.

Quote:
Quote:
Aside from you being able to see the food, how is that any different from measuring how many people think God exists?


That is the error in your position. It matters not whether people think something exists but whether that something actually has evideince to support it existing.


I feel just as strongly that some food is good as I do that there is an afterlife. If I am misinterpreting my senses, how do I know I am not mistaken when it comes to simple things like good food? If I think the food sucks, everyone else thinks it sucks, and I told you thinking it's good that you have no evidence, would you change your mind?

Quote:
People can think many things which are not supportable by evidence. There are people who think someone is innocent of a crime eventhough there is massive amounts of evidence to counter that thought. All it takes is the ability to disbelieve what you wish to.


True, but we’re not talking about denial.

Quote:
Quote:
Then what's it there for?


The gratification of the invidual? No reason? Peer pressure? Mass suggestion? Space aliens trying to control our minds?


Scientifically, I’m going to have to go with gratification. Pleasure is quite gratifying. Stress reduction could certainly be advantageous at times.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:02 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20354
Location: Southeastern US
Fosgate wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Emotional effects, which are essentially what we're talking about (i.e. the limbic system), can be measured despite nature of the stimuli. Many a Christian has wept over their faith or lack of and gotten just as emotional as someone who's lost a loved one. Adults crying over nothing? I don't buy that.


But the emotional effects you use as an example are not different from other unrelated emotional stimuli and thus are not evidence of a difference.


That's what I'm saying--that there is no difference between those effects and those originating from what I think we can agree exists--love.


No, what I was saying is your example of crying is not identified with any specific emotion and thus could not be used as evidence for a specific claim in any way. For example, people cry for no emotional reason due to physical changes in hormones, they cry due to extreme happiness, they cry due to extreme sadness, and they cry due to physical pain or discomfort.

Quote:
Quote:
Crying is a response related to being happy, sad, unstable, and hormonal imbalances so it can be the result of nothing emotional or nothing physical.


It can happen for no reason or in some cases, at will, but we're talking about it being the result of something that is quite obviously emotional, predictable, and not necessarily the result of other factors lending to same.


If you are using it as evidence to claim existence there has to be something which is specific only to the point being claimed and that is not the case.

Quote:
Quote:
No, we can measure brain responses to good food or other positive stimuli giving pleasure to the person.


You can measure responses when one speaks (or hears) of an afterlife, God, or other supernatural, positive stimuli that also give one pleasure. You may not understand why it but it’s a measureable reaction either way nonetheless.


I have not seen any such studies on this do you have any references?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Aside from you being able to see the food, how is that any different from measuring how many people think God exists?


That is the error in your position. It matters not whether people think something exists but whether that something actually has evidence to support it existing.


I feel just as strongly that some food is good as I do that there is an afterlife.


That the food give you pleasure is reproducible and science can provide measurements to support that fact. That you believe in an afterlife does not prove there is an actual afterlife in any way regardless of how it makes you feel. That is the very significant difference between something with evidence and something without.

Quote:
If I am misinterpreting my senses, how do I know I am not mistaken when it comes to simple things like good food?


You cannot be mistaken in that case because the senses and the responses generated by them are the defining factors. The belief in something can be measured to determine the similar impact but that does not make the subject of the belief real in any case.

Quote:
If I think the food sucks, everyone else thinks it sucks, and I told you thinking it's good that you have no evidence, would you change your mind?


No, because we can measure to determine the real impacts if we wish. The food is real, the impact on the body is real, and the belief related to that impact is subjective to the individual. In any question of whether you actually be live it is good and others do not, we can perform tests to measure that physical effect on the brain to know.

Quote:
Quote:
People can think many things which are not supportable by evidence. There are people who think someone is innocent of a crime even though there is massive amounts of evidence to counter that thought. All it takes is the ability to disbelieve what you wish to.


True, but we’re not talking about denial.


Yes, we are. You are in denial that belief does not constitute existence. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Then what's it there for?


The gratification of the invidual? No reason? Peer pressure? Mass suggestion? Space aliens trying to control our minds?


Scientifically, I’m going to have to go with gratification. Pleasure is quite gratifying. Stress reduction could certainly be advantageous at times.


But this still does not prove there is anything other than a placebo effect related to the belief in something. It clearly does not prove the existence of the subject of the belief.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:00 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
In this case, I am willing to accept other than scientific evidence. That's that.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:47 pm 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 85
Fosgate wrote:
Other than how you feel about dinner, what evidence is that? That it gets served? That it exists? We're talking "goodness" here, a concept just as abstract as a supernatural God. Either way, it boils down to "if you say so."

I disagree. The goodness of food is quantifiable. We eat food that is nutritious, healthy, and with fresh ingredients.


Besoeker wrote:
By contrast, you seem to have no consistently repeatable evidence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenovelent entity. Or any evidence at all.


Fosgate wrote:
Yes, in fact I do, and it has been discovered by countless others. I'll tell you the same thing I told Wayne, it's similar to love. If you've never experienced it, then you have no idea what it is or that it even exists. Many people in the world exprience love. Many people also experience God. It's okay if you haven't. I hope you do eventually but I must also accept that you may never. Some folks never experience love either. It's the way of the world.

Love is an emotion. If your concept of a supernatural being is an emotion, I can accept that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:29 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20354
Location: Southeastern US
Fosgate wrote:
In this case, I am willing to accept other than scientific evidence. That's that.


Great, but just do not try to tell someone who is not willing to take such a stand that they should.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:18 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Quote:
I disagree. The goodness of food is quantifiable. We eat food that is nutritious, healthy, and with fresh ingredients.


I'll remember that next time I eat such and it tastes like hell.

Besoeker wrote:
Love is an emotion. If your concept of a supernatural being is an emotion, I can accept that.


That may be the best way science can describe it.

Quote:
Great, but just do not try to tell someone who is not willing to take such a stand that they should.


Never. If it's come across like that then I profusely apolgize. :oops: Doing such a thing is where I part ways with most of the faithful crowd. I'm more into simply setting an example. If folks want to know why I do what I do, then I tell them. They can either pick it up themselves or not.

Along the same lines, I trust you don't tell people how to believe either.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:00 am 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:14 am
Posts: 85
Fosgate wrote:
Curing world hunger is your argument. The burden of proof lies on you.

Incorrect. It is just one example of the absence of evidence for an omnipotent, omnipresent, supernatural entity.
An entity for which you have no proof.
Simple conclusion that satisfies this?
No such entity exists.
QED.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:19 am 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:43 am
Posts: 151
Just becuse the almighty does not stop the un-necessary suffering in the world does not provide evidence of his non-existance.

It just means that if he does exist he is a right evil git.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:17 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:27 am
Posts: 5776
Location: USA
Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
Curing world hunger is your argument. The burden of proof lies on you.

Incorrect. It is just one example of the absence of evidence for an omnipotent, omnipresent, supernatural entity.


Because...you say so? If that's the case, what of those who have eventually been fed for the rest of their lives? Is that not evidence counter to your position or does it, for some magical reason, have to be that everyone's hunger gets satisifed?

Quote:
An entity for which you have no proof.


Scientific proof (i.e. that which fits your acceptance criteria)? No, I do not have that.

Quote:
Simple conclusion that satisfies this?
No such entity exists.
QED.


Or that your detection methods were inadequate, which is more likely since we've gone through and are still developing in that regard.

_________________
TANG SOO!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:41 am 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:09 pm
Posts: 1649
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
the problem with much of the arguments here is trying to quantify a population of one individual. Statistics is the only way to quantify the action of individuals and you need a population of sufficient size to see trends. If this individual we call God heals one person but not another there is no statistic we can place on this individual in regard to healing. Looking the other way around, nearly every culture in the past has miracles in its mythology. Statistically, the belief in miracles is high and consistent. Statistically the belief in a supernatural power is also high and consistent. It is untested theory but I would suspect both of those bell-curves are directly proportional within the same types of populations. This tells me that miracles do happen and likely only happen to be witnessed by those that believe in a supernatural being. I also have had non-believers witness the miracles I witnessed myself. Shortly later I have had some of these individuals tell me they have no memory of the event. The most logical conclusion is that these people could not reconcile the miracle with science and so their brains relegated that memory to being fiction or a dream. You cannot rely on an individual to be consistent and in a monotheistic religion (as most modern ones are), it is the actions of a single individual being called God. Some "Eastern" religions will ascribe spiritual activity to a force of the spirits of all the deceased but they still ascribe the actions of this collective spirit to intelligent decisions which is not consistent with a physical force that fallows scientifically verifiable laws in a repeatable fashion.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 157 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group