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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Did I miss an image somewhere?


Sleepy girl...

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Okay, fair enough. Admittedly a bit cryptic. I mean that love is not of the mind while belief is. We can have ideas or beliefs about love, but those are of the brain/mind, while love is as mysterious as the universe. No idea or belief can pin it. It is not OF the mind.


Actually, it very much is of the mind, along with any other emotion. Improving upon your statement, there is no love without the mind.

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The conventional definition of love probably involves emotion, but I am speaking here of the unfathomable kind of which the universe is made and it cannot be grasped by the mind ..... it's just too damn mysterious!


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I guess we're even then. Faith is faith, no need for science. That is, unless you're telling me not to believe at all, in which case I would respond by telling you not to be scientific.


Hmmm .... not sure about this one. Not sure what you are saying here.


I'm saying that neither is needed in order for the other to exist but more importantly, that they do not necessarily oppose each other.

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Well, ya. Faith is essentially belief. One could believe in many things and most belief is based on some kind of prior knowledge. So, faith in what? Where is there need for faith when life is all around us?


People make judgements, decisions, and draw conclusions based on anecdotal evidence provided by this very life and world surrounding them. As a scientist and believer, I have the ability to distinguish between that which is simply unexplainable and that which appears to be something else entirely. It's not something I would expect a non-believer to understand, for they have yet to experience that about which I am talking.

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If you experience something directly, where is the need for belief? You have3 a direct experience of the thing you are speaking. If you have no experience of it, then in would come belief or faith.


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I don't see any honesty here. To call it my belief? I have none. I've already said so. It's an opinion for sure, but not a belief!


http://thesaurus.com/browse/opinion?s=t

Main Entry: opinion  [uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA/əˈpɪnyən/ Show Spelled
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief

Here's another definition which more accurately points to the word "opinion" as I am using it here.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

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Responsibilty for all of it. The state of the world. We can't take a back seat
to any of it when we take full responsibility for all of it ... each and every one of us. It's so easy to depend on, rely on, some outside authority, and then leave it to that authority. We may say, for instance, that "society" is responsible for the ills that plague us all. But the fact is that WE ARE SOCIETY. There is a huge sense of responsibility when one has done away with belief.


Or not, if one *believes* that society is responsible. I *believe* what you're saying here is correct.

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There's nobody ... no over-seer, no daddy, and ultimately no authority who decides what is good or bad. It's done by us. We're it. The way we treat our neighbors, our children, our wives and husbands. There is nobody to depend or defend us. We ARE it. Once seen, it it is both a major responsibility as well as a major relief.


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So, what's bad can actually be good (and vice versa) if we simply decide it is so? Now that I don't buy.


That is well and good. I don't buy it either nor did I say it.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:12 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
The conventional definition of love probably involves emotion, but I am speaking here of the unfathomable kind of which the universe is made and it cannot be grasped by the mind ..... it's just too damn mysterious!


If it cannot be grasped by the mind, how do you even know what you're talking about?

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If you experience something directly, where is the need for belief? You have3 a direct experience of the thing you are speaking. If you have no experience of it, then in would come belief or faith.


Depends on the crowd. If others have experienced what I have, the consensus is that it isn't belief at all but rather a matter of fact. If others have not, it becomes a personal belief.

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Here's another definition which more accurately points to the word "opinion" as I am using it here.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


If you're uncomfortable calling it belief because of the religious connotations, that's fine with me.

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So, what's bad can actually be good (and vice versa) if we simply decide it is so? Now that I don't buy.


That is well and good. I don't buy it either nor did I say it.


Sure you did, right here:
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There's nobody ... no over-seer, no daddy, and ultimately no authority who decides what is good or bad. It's done by us. We're it.


What you’re saying is that we as societies can decide what is and isn’t acceptable. You’re actually quite right. The problem is your idea of what constitutes a society. You think we’re all one society simply because we are on one planet. Clearly, we are not. You'll claim that religion is the cause. I'll counter with with the notion that it is simply greed.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The conventional definition of love probably involves emotion, but I am speaking here of the unfathomable kind of which the universe is made and it cannot be grasped by the mind ..... it's just too damn mysterious!


If it cannot be grasped by the mind, how do you even know what you're talking about?

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There is a knowing that is outside of the brain/mind. When the usually incessant chatter of the brain is quiet, this knowing comes to be. It's the experience of meditators the world over. It is not belief if it is direct experience.


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If you experience something directly, where is the need for belief? You have3 a direct experience of the thing you are speaking. If you have no experience of it, then in would come belief or faith.


Depends on the crowd. If others have experienced what I have, the consensus is that it isn't belief at all but rather a matter of fact. If others have not, it becomes a personal belief.

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Right, but if you have the direct experience of it yourself, it is a fact. If I have the experience and then tell you about it, it becomes a belief for you if you have not also had the direct experience.


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Here's another definition which more accurately points to the word "opinion" as I am using it here.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


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If you're uncomfortable calling it belief because of the religious connotations, that's fine with me.


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There is a differnce between belief/faith and fact. If something is a fact, where is the need for belief? Of course people are free to have whatever beliefs they hold, and they do in spades. In the case of a fact, where is there need for belief? In the case of direct experience, where is there need for belief?


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So, what's bad can actually be good (and vice versa) if we simply decide it is so? Now that I don't buy.


That is well and good. I don't buy it either nor did I say it.


Sure you did, right here:
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There's nobody ... no over-seer, no daddy, and ultimately no authority who decides what is good or bad. It's done by us. We're it.


And different societies, made up by none other than the people who comprise those societies, DO decide. These become cultural differences. There are untold contemporary variations across the globe as there have been untold variations across history. There is not one way or another in terms of how to do things. What's a cultural norm in Texas, for instance, isn't a norm in Bangladesh, etc., etc.

What you’re saying is that we as societies can decide what is and isn’t acceptable. You’re actually quite right. The problem is your idea of what constitutes a society. You think we’re all one society simply because we are on one planet. Clearly, we are not. You'll claim that religion is the cause. I'll counter with with the notion that it is simply greed.


One planet; many different societies. One planet; many different histories.
I'm saying religion is the cause? The cause of what? Does religion cause belief or does belief cause religion?

But you're correct in that beliefs of varying kinds do create a lot of problems in the world. There are a zillion examples. The belief that homosexuals are "bad", or that this life pales in comparison to the "afterlife", or that albinos are possessed by the devil. These are gross examples of belief but they become much more subtle in nature .... so much so that they are taken as fact. This is why it is important to examine beliefs, because they are often hidden away and taken as fact, when they are not.


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
I'll counter with with the notion that it is simply greed.

Nasty god Mammon?


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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
I'll counter with with the notion that it is simply greed.

Nasty god Mammon?


Could be I suppose....or just us, all the way around, if you know what I mean. I never accepted that humans were created in the image of any particular God. An all-powerful being assuming such a form? Yeah yeah, I know s/he could but again, why would they? You may be pleased to know that's one area in me where the scientist trumps the believer.

Animal-Friendly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm not going to split hairs with you over synonyms.

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 Post subject: Re: What a waste ....
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
Besoeker wrote:
Fosgate wrote:
I'll counter with with the notion that it is simply greed.

Nasty god Mammon?


Could be I suppose....or just us, all the way around, if you know what I mean. I never accepted that humans were created in the image of any particular God. An all-powerful being assuming such a form? Yeah yeah, I know s/he could but again, why would they? You may be pleased to know that's one area in me where the scientist trumps the believer.

Animal-Friendly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm not going to split hairs with you over synonyms.


I was talking about a few different things. Synonyms?


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