EnviroLink Forum

Community • Ecology • Connection
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:48 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 223 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:03 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2317
Location: Central Colorado
Milton Banana wrote:
Image

This blows away the "too feminine" argument!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... goers.html
http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-sw ... rks/print/
Texas town allows teachers to carry concealed guns
Posted: 12/20/2012 01:08:38 AM MST
Updated: 12/20/2012 01:51:27 AM MST
By ANGELA K. BROWN Associated Press

Read more: Texas town allows teachers to carry concealed guns - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22229 ... z2FbnWP3zl
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:33 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
SiberD wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
The issue of guns, violence, mental illness, etc., is very, very unique to the US. But you would not realize this unless you get out of that particular conditioning. The rest of the world shakes their head.


Uh, yeah.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html#ixzz2FADXPUFp


It might help to have a more recent article than a 2009 piece dealing with an even older set of data.



Quote:


While this is a recent articl, it is based on a "conservative think tank" piece again from 2009, which was taken from a web article of the same year from a source that does not have such a high standard for accuracy in web publications. In fact the editor stated they had:

"a less-strict standard for accuracy and attribution in stories that appear on the Web" than for publications in print

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:07 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:16 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: The only hole built above ground
Well gee Wayne, why didn't you discredit Johnny's link? I mean, its from FOX news even!! Or are you just targeting mine ? ;-)

Oh, I think the first article is recent enough. Don't like it? TS.

_________________
I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:38 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... 31892.html

The U.S., with 4.5 percent of the world population, accounts for about 40 percent of the planet's civilian firearms, said Dr. Garen Wintemute, of the University of California, Davis, Medical Center.

The U.S. is not a uniquely violent society, said Wintemute, who practices emergency medicine and conducts research on the nature and prevention of gun violence. Our overall rates of violence are similar to Australia, Canada and Western Europe. Where the U.S. stands out, Wintemute said, is in the homicide rate.

"That's a weapon effect. It's not clear that guns cause violence, but it's absolutely clear that they change the outcome," said Wintemute.

Other countries have homicide rates comparable with the U.S. or worse, Alpers said. But they're not exactly models of public safety. United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime data shows 10,300 homicides by firearms in the U.S. 2009, compared with 8,804 in Mexico and 12,808 in Colombia.


http://smartgunlaws.org/category/gun-st ... tatistics/


In 2010, guns took the lives of 31,076 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. This is the equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour.1

73,505 Americans were treated in hospital emergency departments for non-fatal gunshot wounds in 2010.2

Firearms were the third-leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide in 2010, following poisoning and motor vehicle accidents.3

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.4

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.5

Homicide

Guns were used in 11,078 homicides in the U.S. in 2010, comprising almost 35% of all gun deaths, and over 68% of all homicides.6

On average, 33 gun homicides were committed each day for the years 2005-2010.7

Regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.8

Where guns are prevalent, there are significantly more homicides, particularly gun homicides.9

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:44 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Not just the UK and Australia;
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/ ... ashington/
Quote:
Jamaica wasn't always the extremely violent country that it is today (see the figure here). Jamaica experienced large increases in murder rates since enacting a handgun bans in 1974. Since the gun ban, Jamaica’s murder rate has soared to become one of the highest in the world, currently at least double that of other Caribbean countries. Jamaica’s murder rate hasn’t sunk below 10 murders per 100,000 people since the gun ban went into effect.


Johnny,

The opinion piece uses the authors book and website as the evidence, which is questionable at best. The history of Jamaica is different from the implication Lott makes.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:49 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/print/


From the link, I wonder how many in the US wouold support such a limit on the number of guns one is allowed to purchase and the requirement to obtain a permit to purchase?


The government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18, who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.
Read more: http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-sw ... z2FcxAH0ul

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:52 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
SiberD wrote:
Well gee Wayne, why didn't you discredit Johnny's link? I mean, its from FOX news even!! Or are you just targeting mine ? ;-)


I did but I do have to do some work to pay the bills and I barely was able to finish the post concerning your post before I was tied up with work.

Quote:
Oh, I think the first article is recent enough. Don't like it? TS.


Fine, outdated information is so easy to ignore.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:11 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
Since homicides and attempted homicides have been decreasing since 2001/2, it is hard to imagine there is such a huge increase in gun related deaths.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.

Attempted murders also fell, but by a smaller proportion, dropping by 7.6% in comparison to a fall of 13.6% in homicides.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:04 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:16 pm
Posts: 2453
Location: The only hole built above ground
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Since homicides and attempted homicides have been decreasing since 2001/2, it is hard to imagine there is such a huge increase in gun related deaths.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.

Attempted murders also fell, but by a smaller proportion, dropping by 7.6% in comparison to a fall of 13.6% in homicides.


Well, golly gee whizz, turns out you're right. Something I found doing a quick check on that was really curious. In this article it says....

Quote:
Officials said the fall in homicide figures was not unique to England and Wales and there had been reductions in Europe, Asia and North America since the mid 1990s.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

So I went to verify that and...

Image

Quote:
The puzzle compounds. We see a roughly cyclical pattern: a high plateau in the 1920s and early 30s; a rapid drop of more than half to a low point in the late 1950s; then, a sharp rise, more than doubling, by 1980 and 1990. That’s followed by what will probably be a drop of about half by 2010. These are huge swings.


http://thepublicintellectual.org/2011/05/02/a-crime-puzzle/

So, the decline in homicides in both the UK and the US have dropped. Guess you can't attribute that to gun control in one locale and the lack there of in another.

_________________
I can have oodles of charm....... when I want to.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:37 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Since homicides and attempted homicides have been decreasing since 2001/2, it is hard to imagine there is such a huge increase in gun related deaths.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.

Attempted murders also fell, but by a smaller proportion, dropping by 7.6% in comparison to a fall of 13.6% in homicides.


Well, golly gee whizz, turns out you're right. Something I found doing a quick check on that was really curious. In this article it says....

Quote:
Officials said the fall in homicide figures was not unique to England and Wales and there had been reductions in Europe, Asia and North America since the mid 1990s.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

So I went to verify that and...

Image

Quote:
The puzzle compounds. We see a roughly cyclical pattern: a high plateau in the 1920s and early 30s; a rapid drop of more than half to a low point in the late 1950s; then, a sharp rise, more than doubling, by 1980 and 1990. That’s followed by what will probably be a drop of about half by 2010. These are huge swings.


http://thepublicintellectual.org/2011/05/02/a-crime-puzzle/

So, the decline in homicides in both the UK and the US have dropped. Guess you can't attribute that to gun control in one locale and the lack there of in another.



Actually, you could given the numbers involved are significantly different. The trends are similar but the end effects are not.

The 2011 population for England and Wales is listed at 56.1million so given this information:

551 homicides (includes murder, manslaughter and infanticide) were reported in 2011/12, a considerable drop on the previous year's total of 638. Homicides are now down to around half of the figure for 2001/2.

The total homicides for 2010/11 is 638:56,100,000 or 0.00114% of the population

While the US has 311.6 million population listed for 2011.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... 31892.html


Other countries have homicide rates comparable with the U.S. or worse, Alpers said. But they're not exactly models of public safety. United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime data shows 10,300 homicides by firearms in the U.S. 2009, compared with 8,804 in Mexico and 12,808 in Colombia

Thus using the 2009 gun homicide rate and 2011 population we have 10,300:311,600,000 or 0.003306% of the population.

Thus the US gun homicide rate is 2.9 times the rate of total homicides for England/Wales. This seems to support the claim of the weaopn changing the outcome, if the rates of violence are the same but the homicide rates are different.

The U.S. is not a uniquely violent society, said Wintemute, who practices emergency medicine and conducts research on the nature and prevention of gun violence. Our overall rates of violence are similar to Australia, Canada and Western Europe. Where the U.S. stands out, Wintemute said, is in the homicide rate.

"That's a weapon effect. It's not clear that guns cause violence, but it's absolutely clear that they change the outcome," said Wintemute.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:19 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
No matter how you look at the data it seems the US is significantly different where guns are concerned.

Image

Image

Image

Image

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:36 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am
Posts: 2317
Location: Central Colorado
There is a graph here
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics ... ics/60071/
That shows the percentage of American households with guns has decreased from 50% in 1970 to 32% in 2010. Although that is those that admitted such. I suppose many did not want to admit anything. :mrgreen:
Then there is this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate
or this; http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

This is also interesting; http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_d ... death-rate

And more charts of gun ownership rates versus gun homicide rates;
http://augmentedtrader.wordpress.com/20 ... tatistics/

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:18 pm 
Offline
Member with 50 posts!
Member with 50 posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:24 am
Posts: 87
I think one major catch for Israel and Switzerland is that citizens receive training and education concerning the use of firearms. That's not mandatory for the U.S.

Also, there may be various factors that contribute to lower crime rates, not only for countries that have less gun control but even those that have more. In which case, it's more logical to look at comparisons between industrialized countries. For example,

"On Guns, America Stands Out"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opini ... s-out.html

Finally, given the context of the Second Amendment,

"The Second Amendment you don't know"

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/amen ... -1.1223900


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:04 pm 
Offline
EnviroLink Volunteer
EnviroLink Volunteer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:45 pm
Posts: 20604
Location: Southeastern US
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
There is a graph here
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics ... ics/60071/
That shows the percentage of American households with guns has decreased from 50% in 1970 to 32% in 2010. Although that is those that admitted such. I suppose many did not want to admit anything. :mrgreen:


If this data are correct, it would not bode well for the opposition to gun control as the majority of the US do not own the majority of the guns, which is the concern the groups like the NRA seem to ignore.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:46 pm 
Offline
Member with over 1000 posts!
Member with over 1000 posts!

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:42 am
Posts: 1352
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Not just the UK and Australia;
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/ ... ashington/
Quote:
Jamaica wasn't always the extremely violent country that it is today (see the figure here). Jamaica experienced large increases in murder rates since enacting a handgun bans in 1974. Since the gun ban, Jamaica’s murder rate has soared to become one of the highest in the world, currently at least double that of other Caribbean countries. Jamaica’s murder rate hasn’t sunk below 10 murders per 100,000 people since the gun ban went into effect.


Johnny,

The opinion piece uses the authors book and website as the evidence, which is questionable at best. The history of Jamaica is different from the implication Lott makes.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opini ... share&_r=0

Lotts research on guns thoroughly debunked

http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/Ayre ... rticle.pdf


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 223 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 15  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group