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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:54 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
So, what's Wayne's solution to all of the evil that takes place? I've still seen that be be expressed. If I missed it, please provide a link?


Nothing will eliminate all possible evil, except the removal of people, (which would be more possible if everyone were heavily armed) but it can be limited by removing easy access. If you read from the beginning you would have noticed that I did give some reasonable control possiblities.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:59 pm 
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To which could be added the elimination of collapsable stocks (inhibit concealment) and high capacity magazines for rifles and pistols (maybe excluding .22 rimfire) to limit the ability to shoot multiple people without reloading. A 10 round magazine is more than any hunter would be expected to need.

Wayne Stollings wrote:
When I was younger I took a hunter safety course and before I got my concealed carry permit I was required to take a class and show my ability to shoot. When I applied for my drivers license I had to pass a written test and show my ability to handle a car safely. If we carry this to the concept of gun purchase we could make a small difference in keeping people from doing something like we saw in Sandy Hook school. I have no problem with a similar program of license for gun ownership as in the concealed carry permit program. A background check, which is done for purchase now, but the check included medical records which indicate whether there are any known problems or concerns other than with the law. A safety program and a final test that included shooting would help ensure those who own guns can safely use them.

Of course, it does not preclude those who steal guns or acquire them through illegal means from getting them. It does not preclude the relative of a legal gun owner from gaining access to the guns either. Nothing will prevent the access to a gun because one can build thier own from scratch if one desires and has a bit of mechanical knowledge, but it will give a measure of reasonable checks to protect everyone, including those who buy guns and do not use them safely.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:09 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
So, what's Wayne's solution to all of the evil that takes place? I've still seen that be be expressed. If I missed it, please provide a link?



Whoa Siber ..... a "solution to all the the evil that takes place" is virtually impossible. But should we not do some damage control in the meantime? Some "harm-reduction"? Surely increasing the already 300,000,000 guns already in existence in the US will just make an untenable situation even worse.

The discussion is about gun control .... not complete disarmament. The NRA's position is to increase gun ownership and prevent restriction of guns that can shoot rounds of 50's, 100's .... whatever. This is such a departure from the original intention of the 2nd amendment when folk wanted the right to carry a musket. Look to other countries who are NOT having this discussion and most likely very thankful they are not.

I don't mean to be willfully provocative when I say the NRA are a terrorist organization. I'm sure they don't intent to terrorize, but through ignorance and fear, they do. Most of their members are probably still searching for Obama's proof of citizenship.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:12 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
First post:

To which could be added the elimination of collapsable stocks (inhibit concealment) and high capacity magazines for rifles and pistols (maybe excluding .22 rimfire) to limit the ability to shoot multiple people without reloading. A 10 round magazine is more than any hunter would be expected to need.

Wayne Stollings wrote:
When I was younger I took a hunter safety course and before I got my concealed carry permit I was required to take a class and show my ability to shoot. When I applied for my drivers license I had to pass a written test and show my ability to handle a car safely. If we carry this to the concept of gun purchase we could make a small difference in keeping people from doing something like we saw in Sandy Hook school. I have no problem with a similar program of license for gun ownership as in the concealed carry permit program. A background check, which is done for purchase now, but the check included medical records which indicate whether there are any known problems or concerns other than with the law. A safety program and a final test that included shooting would help ensure those who own guns can safely use them.

Of course, it does not preclude those who steal guns or acquire them through illegal means from getting them. It does not preclude the relative of a legal gun owner from gaining access to the guns either. Nothing will prevent the access to a gun because one can build thier own from scratch if one desires and has a bit of mechanical knowledge, but it will give a measure of reasonable checks to protect everyone, including those who buy guns and do not use them safely.


Collapsible stocks? Do you mean side folders or the adjustable type commonly found on AR15? Those on the AR's are meant for adjusting the stock to the shooters comfort level, not for concealment.

And going down to 10rd maximum magazine really is stupid Wayne. I can change a mag in 3 to 4 seconds....and I'm an old fart. And why would you exclude rim fire rifles or pistols? I've got a Ruger 10/22 that you can get 30rd magazines ford. One can do a lot of damage with those at close range.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:15 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
So, what's Wayne's solution to all of the evil that takes place? I've still seen that be be expressed. If I missed it, please provide a link?



Whoa Siber ..... a "solution to all the the evil that takes place" is virtually impossible. But should we not do some damage control in the meantime? Some "harm-reduction"? Surely increasing the already 300,000,000 guns already in existence in the US will just make an untenable situation even worse.

The discussion is about gun control .... not complete disarmament. The NRA's position is to increase gun ownership and prevent restriction of guns that can shoot rounds of 50's, 100's .... whatever. This is such a departure from the original intention of the 2nd amendment when folk wanted the right to carry a musket. Look to other countries who are NOT having this discussion and most likely very thankful they are not.

I don't mean to be willfully provocative when I say the NRA are a terrorist organization. I'm sure they don't intent to terrorize, but through ignorance and fear, they do. Most of their members are probably still searching for Obama's proof of citizenship.


This is not a departure when folks carried muskets. Back then the populace was armed with the same type of weapons that the standing armies had.

And the NRA is a terrorist organization? My gawd you're deluded and no, I am not a member of the NRA.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:26 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
First post:

To which could be added the elimination of collapsable stocks (inhibit concealment) and high capacity magazines for rifles and pistols (maybe excluding .22 rimfire) to limit the ability to shoot multiple people without reloading. A 10 round magazine is more than any hunter would be expected to need.

Wayne Stollings wrote:
When I was younger I took a hunter safety course and before I got my concealed carry permit I was required to take a class and show my ability to shoot. When I applied for my drivers license I had to pass a written test and show my ability to handle a car safely. If we carry this to the concept of gun purchase we could make a small difference in keeping people from doing something like we saw in Sandy Hook school. I have no problem with a similar program of license for gun ownership as in the concealed carry permit program. A background check, which is done for purchase now, but the check included medical records which indicate whether there are any known problems or concerns other than with the law. A safety program and a final test that included shooting would help ensure those who own guns can safely use them.

Of course, it does not preclude those who steal guns or acquire them through illegal means from getting them. It does not preclude the relative of a legal gun owner from gaining access to the guns either. Nothing will prevent the access to a gun because one can build thier own from scratch if one desires and has a bit of mechanical knowledge, but it will give a measure of reasonable checks to protect everyone, including those who buy guns and do not use them safely.


Collapsible stocks? Do you mean side folders or the adjustable type commonly found on AR15? Those on the AR's are meant for adjusting the stock to the shooters comfort level, not for concealment.


Actually both. It does not matter what they are meant for since they allow for a much reduced length which is more concealable.

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And going down to 10rd maximum magazine really is stupid Wayne. I can change a mag in 3 to 4 seconds....and I'm an old fart.


The 3 to 4 seconds gives time for action and is a compromise rather than eliminate all detachable magizines, but hey, if that is your goal it will eventually happen when the majority of the people tire of the mass shootings. What is really stupid is telling everyone nothing needs to be done after each mass killing until the final reaction is to eliminate guns completely.

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And why would you exclude rim fire rifles or pistols? I've got a Ruger 10/22 that you can get 30rd magazines ford. One can do a lot of damage with those at close range.


Again, the reasonable aspect is lost in the attempt to ignore the problems. The rimfire is more often used for target practice and is the weakest common round so is not a good choice for a mass killing. Again, if you believe in all or nothing as the choice, by all means eliminate them too. You can do that by either proposing to do so or fighting any reasonable actions until there is sufficient opposition and large swaths are removed from legal ownership.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:31 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
So, what's Wayne's solution to all of the evil that takes place? I've still seen that be be expressed. If I missed it, please provide a link?



Whoa Siber ..... a "solution to all the the evil that takes place" is virtually impossible. But should we not do some damage control in the meantime? Some "harm-reduction"? Surely increasing the already 300,000,000 guns already in existence in the US will just make an untenable situation even worse.

The discussion is about gun control .... not complete disarmament. The NRA's position is to increase gun ownership and prevent restriction of guns that can shoot rounds of 50's, 100's .... whatever. This is such a departure from the original intention of the 2nd amendment when folk wanted the right to carry a musket. Look to other countries who are NOT having this discussion and most likely very thankful they are not.

I don't mean to be willfully provocative when I say the NRA are a terrorist organization. I'm sure they don't intent to terrorize, but through ignorance and fear, they do. Most of their members are probably still searching for Obama's proof of citizenship.


This is not a departure when folks carried muskets. Back then the populace was armed with the same type of weapons that the standing armies had.


Except for the artillery, of course. The whole need for self defense is much much less than in 1776, but why not ignore everyhting you do not want to acknowledge.

Quote:
And the NRA is a terrorist organization? My gawd you're deluded and no, I am not a member of the NRA.


Actually, it kind of fits the definition. They use terror of being unarmed and torn apart by the masses to promote political objectives.

And I have been a member of the NRA in the last 10 years, but dropped it when they continued to take a no reasonable control position.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:24 pm 
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I still haven't seen any proof of Obama's Citizenship that has not been deemed fake/altered/fraudulent by expert forensic document analysis. (sure, bought off people in Hawaii have said it is genuine when one retired from their records branch had said before it didn't exist back before 2008.)<<< I quit the NRA when they started catering to Hispanics with Spanish language. Then I rejoined when it was apparent they were the best org for keeping 2nd Amendment Rights.(which includes the individual's right to bear arms "shall not be infringed", ralfy).
If they go with the same assault rifle ban and 10 rd mag max, I will have to take off the pike on my SKS and put a plug in my 13 rd. P14 mags. Still, we have been outgunned by our government since around the 1930s. It would be tough to do the Tom Jefferson thing, like in the Declaration of Independence, >>which is part of what the 2nd Amend. was for.<<<
In 1776 there were a lot less people and more wild predators. Now there are 124 times the people and many of them are wild predators. From overpopulation.org;
"Through immigration and high birth rates, the United States is expected to add another 100 million people by 2050. We've already added 105 million people since 1970; we have a net gain of one person every 13 seconds."(that is less than 6 minutes to get 26 people).<<<
>>>The need for self protection is just as big as ever. We have been under invasion from Mexico for 30 years yet are not allowed to stop it. I am not allowed to live up to my Military Oath that I never rescinded(how about the Citizen's Militia to stop the invasion!!!). Felony conduct in Washington, city and state governments and by citizens is not punished, and if I tried to make a lawful citizen's arrest of them, I would be thrown in jail.(they owe a $5K fine for each of the 30 million illegals robbing our gov't and people's jobs and wages!!)<< USC1324iv Felony
A hundred million get punished for the acts of 3 who should have been locked up in nut wards, for schools that forbid firearms except to the nuts and criminals. A million criminals will still have forbidden weapons, and >>>millions more will still be getting away with their crimes, whose fines could pay off the National Debt.<<<(you forgot to answer this one, Wayne!).
The crime of killing billions in future generations with depletion and pollution effects will still go on.<<<<(how about this one?)
In the sixties we had the guy with a brain tumor up in a tower. >>Overpopulation was not dealt with<< and now we have the 3 >recent< nut cases. >>As crowding gets worse, so do hostility, depression and anxiety disorders. If the nuts don't have guns to steal, they use gasoline, knives/machetes, or pointed sticks, as more people go insane with overcrowding, lowering wages, lack of work, rising costs, or pollution poisoning.<<
>> We don't read about the deaths caused by introduced diseases from illegals.<< >>>The seven thousand of guns given to drug dealers(under Obama) is compared equally(by liberals) to another failed program that gave a two hundred guns to them(under Bush). Obama/Holder's guns have been linked to hundreds of Mexican deaths and one Border Patrol Agent's death, which they are criminally liable for! >>>While effective programs to get out criminals are stopped (i.e. 287g) by a criminal admin. <<<<!!!!!! (Tyrannical gov't of Obama).............
Guns take hundreds of years to wear out, if maintained. Citizen's semi-autos are offset by moslem, commie, and criminal's AK & other fully automatic weapons (criminals including some of those working for the gov't, local, state, or Federal).
The danger to US citizens increases............!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Et tu, Brute? (Wayne)

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:06 pm 
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To recap what I shared earlier:

The U.S. has higher crimes attributed to guns compared to various OECD countries, and the reason is obvious: more guns, more incidences of crime, etc. involving guns.

The Second Amendment is not about the right to bear arms. That right is part of English common law, which means it doesn't need to be approved by government. In short, the right to bear arms takes place by default, and does not need to be mentioned in the Constitution or statutes.

What, then, is the Second Amendment about? It is not about the right to bear arms. Rather, it is about the need to form well-regulated militias using the right to bear arms as justification. That is why we have the Militia Acts that followed the amendment. The statutes required almost all white, able-bodied males of a certain age to acquire weapons (muskets, the equivalent of assault or battle rifles) and then train with a militia twice a year. The militia is answerable to the POTUS. Thus, the Second Amendment is NOT about a militia that is meant to protect against "government tyranny." It is a reserve force regulated by the government. Subsequent acts made this statute permanent, included African-American males, and called for the formation of a National Guard. Later, conscription was removed.

Thus, the second amendment obliges citizens (at least male adults of a certain age range) to buy assault weapons (or to be provided weapons by the government) and to train with a militia. If it is the National Guard, then training involving armored vehicles, etc., are included. Since such a provision involves training (which is part of gun control), then gun control does not go against the Second Amendment and is not unconstitutional.

In addition, gun control does not violate the right to bear arms. That's because the right to bear arms is one that takes place by default but may be abridged by the law. That's why convicts, for example, are not allowed to bear arms.

Finally, behind all of this is the arms industry. That is, the arms industry profits by selling weapons to civilians. The same arms industry lobbies the government and successfully convinces the latter to set aside gun control. Meanwhile, the same arms industry sells the same weapons (and better) to the same government and profits from that. This allows the police and military to form some of the most formidable surveillance and even prison systems in the world. With that, gun control is replaced by police systems to control civilians with weapons provided by the arms industry that supplies the same weapons (and more) to the police and military.

Next, the same arms industry lobbies government to deregulate arms exports, thus allowing it to profit from sales to many countries, thus making the U.S. the main arms dealer of the world. Why does the government agree? Because the same arms industry sells weapons, etc., to the military, which is used to prop up the petro-dollar, which allows the U.S. to borrow and spend easily. The same arms are used as part of military aid for some countries or even groups used to gain strategic advantages for the U.S., to control particular resources, or even to destabilize various governments. Arms dealers sell to various criminal groups.

Meanwhile, utterly naive citizens think that with small arms they will be able to avoid "tyranny" from a government armed with better weapons, armored vehicles, ground-attack aircraft, missiles, artillery, etc., supplied by the same defense industry that sold small arms to them. Eventually, they face armed threat from fellow citizens, several of which face problems described in this article:

http://lewrockwell.com/orig12/shield2.1.1.html

increasing brutality from police and even military personnel, and criminal groups who all acquired armaments from the same sources.

With that, expect more tragedies, more armaments bought and sold not only in the U.S. worldwide (and with that more profits for the arms industry), more lobbying from the arms industry insisting that more guns are needed, more beefed up police and military forces, growing control through surveillance and prison systems, and amplified effects of gun use as social crises worsen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
I still haven't seen any proof of Obama's Citizenship that has not been deemed fake/altered/fraudulent by expert forensic document analysis.


I have to ask what "experts" there have been? The state of Hawaii has issued numerous statements on the issue and they ARE the experts on their paperwork.

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A hundred million get punished for the acts of 3 who should have been locked up in nut wards, for schools that forbid firearms except to the nuts and criminals.


Not just three, but a lot of cases.

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A million criminals will still have forbidden weapons, and millions more will still be getting away with their crimes, whose fines could pay off the National Debt.


For a time, yes. Eventually the lack of production will have an effect on the numbers.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Steven Davis, a well liked math and science teacher, who studied CIA manuals and military type training, posted some youtube vids making statements such as , ....

"the school system is sick and needs to be healed".

"I'm going to shut the system down."

"This is very well planned and thought out. It's all going to come down so hard."

"I'm going to shut the system down until they get things straight."

Police went to his home and confiscated an AR-15, the same weapon used in Newtown.

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s2884030.shtml?cat=300


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:02 am 
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Related:

"The Sandy Hook Massacre and the Merchant$ of Death"

"Americans need to understand that the NRA is very much a part of this global arms trade. If one follows the money, the reasons why the NRA is adamantly opposed to any sort of regulation on guns becomes painfully apparent. While the US domestic arms industry conveniently wraps itself and its profit motive behind the patriotic fervor of the Second Amendment and the colonial ghosts of Founding Fathers, the horrors of the Sandy Hook massacre are blamed on everything under the sun except for that which hides in plain sight — an unregulated, out-of-control global and domestic arms industry."

http://collapseofindustrialcivilization ... -of-death/


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Corruption of all kinds would be nice to get rid of. Kind of a good site, ralfy, where I found this, which is very good;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM1x4RljmnE

One aspect of the corruption is that those 26 people were replaced by immigrants in less than 6 minutes. That is as much or more of a sickening fact than the looney kid who was the shooter.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Re: exponential growth, reminds me of Bartlett.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:06 am 
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ralfy wrote:
Re: exponential growth, reminds me of Bartlett.


Yes Bartlett speaks of exponential growth and the crisis in over population, as did the narrator of the link Johnny provided. But neither spoke of containing that growth with AK-15's or by arming every US citizen with multiple weapons ...... virtually unchecked so that twenty babes could be shot while going about their business of the learning their ABC's.


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