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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:34 pm 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/us/mo ... d=all&_r=0

Mr. Diez, as it turned out, was one of more than 240,000 people in North Carolina with a permit to carry a concealed handgun. If not for that gun, Mr. Simons is convinced, the confrontation would have ended harmlessly. “I bet it would have been a bunch of mouthing,” he said.

Mr. Diez, then 42, eventually pleaded guilty to assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:34 pm 
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What is the number(A) of >legal gun owners, including police, gov't agents, and military<, versus the number of >illegal< homicides per year by these >legal< gun owners(B)? (NOT including accidents or suicides---i.e. general listings under homicides)
>>>That would give a more accurate picture of just how dangerous gun owners are to the non-gun owner population, which should also be given in hard numbers. (C)
Answer A, B, & C, please. :mrgreen:

[my own educated guess is ~120 million, <4,000, and ~200 million, so, relatively, >>>legal gun owners are not dangerous to the general population] Many other things are much more dangerous.<<<

A joke? or is it reality?
A Disbarred Lawyer, an Illegal Alien, a Pathological Liar, a Muslim, a Communist and a Black Guy walk into a BAR.





Bartender asks....
"What'll it be, Mr. President?" (I would say it is too real!) :mrgreen:
More on gun control:
"Here's a little history lesson regarding gun-grabbing and the carnage that ensued: In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th century because of gun control: 56 million. You won't see this data on the U.S. evening news or hear politicians disseminating this information." --columnist Doug Giles
:-k [-o< =;

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
What is the number(A) of >legal gun owners, including police, gov't agents, and military<, versus the number of >illegal< homicides per year by these >legal< gun owners(B)?
That would give a more accurate picture of just how dangerous gun owners are to the non-gun owner population, which should also be given in hard numbers. (C)
Answer A, B, & C, please. :mrgreen:

[my own guess is ~120 million, <4,000, and ~200 million]


It does not matter since the criteria you presented was a guarantee of safety, which is clearly not met with the gun ownership.

If there is no guarantee of safety by gun control and thus gun control is useless, then given there is no guarantee of safety by gun ownership the gun ownership is useless under this criteria. Single standards are simple.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:17 pm 
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According to the figures more people were killed by guns in the US in the one year, 2009, than American troops killed by all means in both Iraq and Afghanistan from the start until today.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Firearm homicides 2009

Number of deaths: 11,493

http://www.defense.gov/news/casualty.pdf

As of January 9, 2013, according to the U.S. Department of Defense casualty website, there were 4,488 total deaths (including both killed in action and non-hostile) in the Iraq theater from 2003 thru 2011.

As of January 9, 2013, according to the U.S. Department of Defense casualty website, there were 2,165 total deaths (including both killed in action and non-hostile) in the Afghanistan.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 pm 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
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The NRA distribute myths about the treaty, while shouting "freedom" and "the right to be armed" and yet not even taking into consideration the right to life! Little consideration for the hundreds of millions whose lives have been affected by the insistence on that "right". So misguided while creating very unsafe, insecure conditions in the US and in the world. Who, I wonder, will protect us from the NRA who are clearly in it for the money .....


No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)


"And the truth is that no gun law was passed in Germany in 1935. There was no need for one, since a gun registration program was already in effect in Germany; it was enacted in 1928, five years before Hitler’s ascendancy. But that law did not “outlaw” guns, it just restricted their possession to individuals who were considered law-abiding citizens, and who had a reason to own one. And there’s no reason to consider that law particularly significant, either; the NAZIs didn’t seize control of their own country with gunpowder. They used a much more potent weapon: propaganda."

http://propagandaprofessor.net/2011/09/ ... s-gun-ban/


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:48 am 
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America is girding for social/racial conflicts. The public senses this and has acquired firearms.
Suggest that all Americans be armed and receive basic safety and use instruction.
Quality firearms are a fine hedge against inflation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:56 am 
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>>>>>Still the first questions were not answered.<<<<(SEE ABOVE!!) The comparisons made should also include motor vehicles then, and forms of death from lifestyle choices such as obesity and smoking, booze and drugs, and from environmental causes such as soots and carcinogenic chemicals.
https://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#in ... 41f75933c6

Bunch of great posters, here is what one says;
"25 states allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.
However, 4 out of 5 US murders are committed in the other half of the country, so who's crazy?" Andrew Ford

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Still the first questions were not answered. The comparisons made should also include motor vehicles then, and forms of death from lifestyle choices such as obesity and smoking, booze and drugs, and from environmental causes such as soots and carcinogenic chemicals.


Why? It makes no difference given your position of a guarantee of safety being the criteria for acceptance. That criteria is not met thus the gun ownership is useless unless you are now trying to institute a second standard for acceptance.

Homicide is a leading cause of death and guns are a leading cause of homicides. The ownership of a gun does not guarantee safety, but does increase the odds of death rather than injury in an assault. One may try to rationalize acceptance of gun ownership without the guarantee of safety, but then the points of oppositon against gun control based on the lack of guarantee are also removed if we are to maintain a single standard. This brings us back to the point of some reasonable control methods making it safer for the general population, which does not guarantee everyone's safety at all times either.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:27 pm 
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The El Paso, CO, sheriff wants to train teachers/administrators;
http://www.gazette.com/articles/teacher ... chool.html

and here is gun control at its worst;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_%28farmer%29

He had been burglarized 9 times with no police help. Robbers with extensive criminal records broke in. He shot both and killed one with an "illegally" bought shotgun, and he ended up with a life sentence. Later he was released after a few years, but more than the surviving burglar got, and given 125K English Pounds compensation. The media had made the bad guys(extensive robbers/criminals) look good and the victim look bad because he took it in his own hands to stop his victimization that the police would or could not stop. There is nothing nutty about what he did in those circumstances, but a lot nutty about him being given prison time. (notice Wayne's purposeful cherry picking of the wiki article---disgusting!)

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:05 pm 
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http://www.toledoblade.com/Education/20 ... itors.html

MONTPELIER, Ohio — Janitors at Montpelier Exempted Village Schools are equipped with brooms, sponges, and dustpans to keep classrooms, corridors, and bathrooms clean and tidy.

Within the next several months, the custodial staff will be toting handguns as they carry out their daily duties in the school district buildings.

In reaction to last month’s deadly shooting rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, the board of education of this Williams County school district Wednesday night unanimously voted for four janitors to carry handguns on the K-12 campus.

School officials say having armed personnel, which may be a first for any school system in Ohio, is designed to thwart incidents of violence and prevent what happened in Newtown, Conn., from occurring in Montpelier.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:

and here is gun control at its worst;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_%28farmer%29


I agree that man should have been prevented from coming near a weapon. Too bad they did not do that and possibly saved a life.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/2 ... n.ukcrime2

Even Tony Martin's best friend describes him as 'weird'. Along with his apples, he nurtured deep-seated hatreds

Eccentric, outspoken, lonely, loony and highly strung: all words used by friends and neighbours to describe Tony Martin, the farmer convicted yesterday of the murder of a 16-year-old boy who broke into his isolated farmhouse one night last August.

Many people in the Fen villages near Emneth in Norfolk believed the "weird" farmer to be harmless. But others, who had heard him espouse his hatred for burglars and what he would do with them if he caught them, had taken to giving Martin a wide berth.

Apart from thieves, Martin's pet hate was Gypsies. Norwich crown court heard that the farmer had talked of putting Gypsies in the middle of a field, surrounding it with barbed wire and machine gunning them. Fred Barras, the boy he killed, was both of these things: a Gypsy and a thief.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:15 pm 
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HeritageFarm wrote:

No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)


What led to the rise of Hitler and others was not a simply a gun ban but an escalation of arms production and growing militarization.

For the U.S., we are seeing citizens supplied by the arms industry, the government equipped with even better armaments by the same arms industry plus the installation of formidable surveillance and prison systems (guess who's playing for all that?), and the same arms industry lobbying not only for no gun control but even deregulation of arms exports, allowing the same government to provide military aid to all sorts of groups worldwide.

In short, we have a business elite profiting heavily from sales to all sorts of groups, but especially to government that works for them and that will keep citizens in check. Citizens, meanwhile, imagine that their small arms will work effectively against ground-attack fighters, artillery, bombs, and tanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
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ralfy wrote:
HeritageFarm wrote:

No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)


What led to the rise of Hitler and others was not a simply a gun ban but an escalation of arms production and growing militarization.

For the U.S., we are seeing citizens supplied by the arms industry, the government equipped with even better armaments by the same arms industry plus the installation of formidable surveillance and prison systems (guess who's playing for all that?), and the same arms industry lobbying not only for no gun control but even deregulation of arms exports, allowing the same government to provide military aid to all sorts of groups worldwide.

In short, we have a business elite profiting heavily from sales to all sorts of groups, but especially to government that works for them and that will keep citizens in check. Citizens, meanwhile, imagine that their small arms will work effectively against ground-attack fighters, artillery, bombs, and tanks.

The only thing on the citizen's side is numbers, as far as resistance and change to a tyrannical government, or the "Tom Jefferson thing." Guns are for protection(both self and community), hunting, and recreation, and the Constitutional Right is not to be "infringed". I would say excessive costs and licensing requirements would be infringements on law abiding mentally stable citizens. Just look up the definition of infringement in dictionaries of the time and now. It isn't some "personal opinion", it is the rule of law of the US Constitution that 2/3rds of the House and Senate would NOT change, especially the Republican controlled House.
There are a number of towns arming their teachers/school employees, and/or allowing volunteer guards, besides those above. In Utah and Texas among them. Our county sheriff's proposals were enthusiastically accepted by teachers and school officials, and even our anti-gun governor.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
ralfy wrote:
HeritageFarm wrote:

No, the NRA's job is to protect us from people like you who don't have a clue about how important self-defense is. Criminals don't pay attention to laws. Disarm the general public, and you arm the criminals. (And the government; Just check out Hitler's tactics.)


What led to the rise of Hitler and others was not a simply a gun ban but an escalation of arms production and growing militarization.

For the U.S., we are seeing citizens supplied by the arms industry, the government equipped with even better armaments by the same arms industry plus the installation of formidable surveillance and prison systems (guess who's playing for all that?), and the same arms industry lobbying not only for no gun control but even deregulation of arms exports, allowing the same government to provide military aid to all sorts of groups worldwide.

In short, we have a business elite profiting heavily from sales to all sorts of groups, but especially to government that works for them and that will keep citizens in check. Citizens, meanwhile, imagine that their small arms will work effectively against ground-attack fighters, artillery, bombs, and tanks.

The only thing on the citizen's side is numbers, as far as resistance and change to a tyrannical government, or the "Tom Jefferson thing." Guns are for protection(both self and community), hunting, and recreation, and the Constitutional Right is not to be "infringed". I would say excessive costs and licensing requirements would be infringements on law abiding mentally stable citizens.
There are a number of towns arming their teachers/school employees, and/or allowing volunteer guards, besides those above. In Utah and Texas among them. Our county sheriff's proposals were enthusiastically accepted by teachers and school officials, and even our anti-gun governor.


The very real point too many ignore is there is NO right under the Constitution of the US which cannot be removed by a passing vote to do so by 2/3 of the state legislatures. In the case of guns, there are already significant restrictions on things such as fully automatic and selective fire, which have not been deemed to violate the 2nd Ammendment. This restriction indicates there is no absolute on that right so other restrictions would be expected to pass such a test as well.

A personal opinion on what would be an infringement means nothing, but the reams of prior court rulings and changes to the Constitution do mean a lot. If the USSC makes a ruling it is binding but can be overruled by a sufficient number of votes as indicated before.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:35 am 
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http://www.14news.com/story/20559778/tn ... utube-rant

CAMDEN, TN (WSMV) -
A Middle Tennessee firearms trainer who made an ominous comment about killing people in a YouTube video that gained national attention this week has had his handgun carry permit suspended Friday by the Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security.

James Yeager, 42, had his permit suspended based on a "material likelihood of risk of harm to the public," the department said in a statement.

Col. Tracy Trott of the Tennessee Department of Safety said it didn't take him long to reach a decision after viewing the comments on the Internet.

"I watched it twice to make sure I was hearing what I thought I heard," Trott said.

"It sounded like it was a veiled threat against the whole public. I believed him. He had a conviction in his voice, and the way he looked into the camera, I believe he's capable of a violent act," Trott said.

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