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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:42 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Johnny, some people get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY2JR92Scmk


Siber ..... this guy cites Chicago as an example of failed gun control, but how could Chicago possibly be successful when it is surrounded?

Chicago Police traced the origins of 50,000 guns (red dots) recovered between 2001 and March 2012. More than 15,000 of the guns traced came from outside city limits and more than half came from outside the state. Chicago's gun violence doesn't undermine the case for strict gun laws, it illustrates the need for a nationally integrated sytem of background checks.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... -from.html


You're absolutely right, they're surrounded! Every single law abiding citizen in Chicago who is not allowed to own a weapon for self protection is surrounded by criminals, who do have access to guns, who know their prey is unprotected.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:05 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Wow, this is interesting. Apparently a "full auto assault rifle" magically transforms into a "personal defense weapon" when placed in the hands of the DHS personnel?

NaturalNews) In yet another huge blow to the rhetoric and narrative of the Obama administration and its desire to disarm the American public, a DHS bid has been uncovered (see documents below) showing that the Department of Homeland Security recently put out an offer to purchase 7,000 full-auto "assault weapons" to be used domestically, inside the USA.

Keep in mind that President Obama is on the record saying, "AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals; that they belong on the battlefield of war, not on the streets of our cities."

But it seems he really means they don't belong on the streets of our cities unless they are in the hands of homeland security enforcers, in which case they can be FULL-AUTO assault weapons.

The DHS bid for 7,000 full-auto assault weapons is found by clicking here. The original credit for discovering this goes, to my best knowledge, to Awr Hawkins at Breitbart.com.

In the hands of the government, they're called "Personal Defense Weapons"
The juiciest part of this bid is the use of the phrase "Personal Defense Weapons" to describe the full-auto AR-15s being purchased by DHS.

Apparently, when YOU hold an AR-15, it's an "assault rifle." But magically, if you hand that same rifle to an armed government homeland security enforcer, it instantly transforms itself into a "personal defense weapon."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038844_DHS_a ... z2JOuxMb3d


What is missing are the agencies which are covered by the DHS umbrella. These are the groups which would "wage war on Americans" with the assault weapons.


Citizenship and Immigration
Coast Guard
TSA
Secret Service
Customs and Border Protection
Immigration and Customs Enforcement
National Protection and Programs
FEMA

Some of these should have no reason for a selective fire weapon, but a few clearly do. The Coast Guard is a good example of one of the agencies which also deployed to SE Asia with the rest of the military.

This is why leaping to conclusions with very little information can result in loss of credibility.

:- :-

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:06 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Johnny, some people get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY2JR92Scmk


Siber ..... this guy cites Chicago as an example of failed gun control, but how could Chicago possibly be successful when it is surrounded?

Chicago Police traced the origins of 50,000 guns (red dots) recovered between 2001 and March 2012. More than 15,000 of the guns traced came from outside city limits and more than half came from outside the state. Chicago's gun violence doesn't undermine the case for strict gun laws, it illustrates the need for a nationally integrated sytem of background checks.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... -from.html


You're absolutely right, they're surrounded! Every single law abiding citizen in Chicago who is not allowed to own a weapon for self protection is surrounded by criminals, who do have access to guns, who know their prey is unprotected.


So a national law that prevents the lax state regulations from allowing the criminals easier access to the weapons would be good for the law abiding people in Chicago.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:43 am 
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Wow Wayne! I have no idea how you inferred that from my statement. I was only commenting on Chicago's failed gun control laws where the criminals are armed and the law abiding citizen is not.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:55 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Wow Wayne! I have no idea how you inferred that from my statement. I was only commenting on Chicago's failed gun control laws where the criminals are armed and the law abiding citizen is not.


It seemed you were concerned with the safety of the law abiding people who followed the law being injured by those who break the law. So you ignored the reason the gun control laws failed in Chicago, why? Never mind, I think the answer is abundantly clear.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Wow Wayne! I have no idea how you inferred that from my statement. I was only commenting on Chicago's failed gun control laws where the criminals are armed and the law abiding citizen is not.


It seemed you were concerned with the safety of the law abiding people who followed the law being injured by those who break the law. So you ignored the reason the gun control laws failed in Chicago, why? Never mind, I think the answer is abundantly clear.

Right---CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!!!!
Why do these people need full automatic weapons? National Protection and Programs, FEMA
I would also question why TSA needs full autos at airports where there are so many people around that could be collateral damage if a few terrorists attacked. In fact I question why SWAT teams and the FBI need full autos. I remember the ridiculousness of the movie "The Gauntlet", but remember some of that happening when Patty Heart was kidnapped. And, of course, Bonnie and Clyde's car. WTF? Gun crazy cops and the FBI types who use any chance to expend inordinate amounts of bullets.
Chicago must have a lot of corruption seeing 4 out of the last seven governors were put in prison for it. The 40 murders per month in Chicago are almost all by criminals, not armed law abiding citizens who went to the dark side. Increase death penalties to all three time burglars on up(.22 to the head within 2 weeks), and the gun crimes will go down, especially if various periods of torture is used as a deterrent for heinous crimes, too. Raid gang houses and take their guns, stop their cars if they look like them and search without worrying about being PC to minorities.
If known or suspected gang members can buy guns outside Chicago, then there is a data base problem because they should be in them. There could be a PC problem, too, because sellers should be able to refuse a sale on the looks of the buyer. If they look weird, look like a gang banger(usually Mex or black) or moll(Mex, black, or white girl who looks like one), shifty eyes, extra nervousness, tattoos and piercings, etc. Yes, the dirty word---profiling, should be used to deny sales, especially just outside big gang cities. Take away the license to sell if the gun is used in a crime within a few months of purchase. All guns are test fired with the manufacturer keeping the bullets, which should be in a data base for markings, just like the fingerprint data base..
Far better to do those things than infringe on the rights of the law abiding vast majority. =D> :clap: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Quote:
Some of these should have no reason for a selective fire weapon, but a few clearly do. The Coast Guard is a good example of one of the agencies which also deployed to SE Asia with the rest of the military.

This is why leaping to conclusions with very little information can result in loss of credibility.


Sigh, you yet again missed the point I was trying to make. That the government refers to AR15's, which are semi-auto rifles as "Assault Weapons" but when it comes to their own, they refer to their "Full Auto Assault Rifles" as "Personal Defense Weapons". The only reason the government calls the AR`15, and other semi auto rifles as "Assault Weapons" is to garner support from the populace as thinking them to be big, bad, terrible weapons. Bovine excrement.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:50 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Quote:
Some of these should have no reason for a selective fire weapon, but a few clearly do. The Coast Guard is a good example of one of the agencies which also deployed to SE Asia with the rest of the military.

This is why leaping to conclusions with very little information can result in loss of credibility.


Sigh, you yet again missed the point I was trying to make. That the government refers to AR15's, which are semi-auto rifles as "Assault Weapons" but when it comes to their own, they refer to their "Full Auto Assault Rifles" as "Personal Defense Weapons". The only reason the government calls the AR`15, and other semi auto rifles as "Assault Weapons" is to garner support from the populace as thinking them to be big, bad, terrible weapons. Bovine excrement.


No, you missed the other references:

Assumption they will be used on the streets and not at sea or in another country where the Coast Guard serves.

"But it seems he really means they don't belong on the streets of our cities unless they are in the hands of homeland security enforcers,"

And more importantly the actual designation of what a PDW is .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon

A personal defense weapon (PDW) is a compact semi-automatic or fully automatic firearm similar in most respects to a submachine gun, but firing a (often proprietary) rifle round, giving a PDW better range, accuracy and armor-penetrating capability than submachine guns, which fire pistol-caliber cartridges. The class of weapon as it exists today evolved as a hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine, retaining the compact size and ammunition capacity of the former while adding the ammunition power, accuracy and penetration of the latter.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:25 pm 
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"The Feinstein law picks out those sorts of weapons in two ways. First, it bans specific guns (like the AR-15s used by James Holmes in Aurora and Adam Lanza in Newtown) that are particularly deadly. Many of these guns are civilian equivalents of military assault rifles, because — as assault rifle expert C.J. Chivers puts it — these guns were “conjured to form solely for the task of allowing men to more efficiently kill other men” because they are “smaller, lighter in weight, more tactically versatile and require a lighter per-man effective ammunition load than the infantry rifles that preceded them.” The Feinstein provisions, unlike in the 1994 federal ban, specify that “altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof” are also banned, so taking out a single screw and calling the weapon something different would not allow manufacturers to skirt the ban."



http://thinkprogress.org/gun-debate-guide/


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:18 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
"The Feinstein law picks out those sorts of weapons in two ways. First, it bans specific guns (like the AR-15s used by James Holmes in Aurora and Adam Lanza in Newtown) that are particularly deadly. Many of these guns are civilian equivalents of military assault rifles, because — as assault rifle expert C.J. Chivers puts it — these guns were “conjured to form solely for the task of allowing men to more efficiently kill other men” because they are “smaller, lighter in weight, more tactically versatile and require a lighter per-man effective ammunition load than the infantry rifles that preceded them.” The Feinstein provisions, unlike in the 1994 federal ban, specify that “altered facsimiles with the capability of any such weapon thereof” are also banned, so taking out a single screw and calling the weapon something different would not allow manufacturers to skirt the ban."



http://thinkprogress.org/gun-debate-guide/



And yet the previous Assault Weapons bill was allowed to lapse, why? Because it was not effective in the rate of deaths via firearms. The vast majority of gun deaths are as a result of pistols, not rifles, either sporting, hunting, nor target rifles. By a large margin.

Yes, the horrific crimes committed lately were most done by AR15 or AK47 types BUT.... the majority of deaths from firearms are attributable to hand guns. This second look at the Assault Weapon ban is nothing but a knee jerk reaction that will just be a precursor to very strict gun control on other types of firearms.

Sorry, but for now, SCOTUS says I can own those types of firearms and until such time as the CONgress can enact legislation that says otherwise, I will own them.

Ya know, I'm getting to the age that handling an AR15 might be easier on me than a 12ga shotgun and that has to be taken under consideration.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:11 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Wow Wayne! I have no idea how you inferred that from my statement. I was only commenting on Chicago's failed gun control laws where the criminals are armed and the law abiding citizen is not.


It seemed you were concerned with the safety of the law abiding people who followed the law being injured by those who break the law. So you ignored the reason the gun control laws failed in Chicago, why? Never mind, I think the answer is abundantly clear.

Right---CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<HEY!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Why do these people need full automatic weapons? National Protection and Programs?, FEMA?
I would also question why TSA needs full autos at airports where there are so many people around that could be collateral damage if a few terrorists attacked. In fact I question why SWAT teams and the FBI need full autos. I remember the ridiculousness of the movie "The Gauntlet", but remember some of that happening when Patty Heart was kidnapped(building destroyed by trigger happy cops). And, of course, Bonnie and Clyde's car. WTF? Gun crazy cops and the FBI types who use any chance to expend inordinate amounts of bullets(that we the people pay for!!).
>>Chicago must have a lot of corruption seeing 4 out of the last seven governors were put in prison for it.<< >>The 40 murders per month in Chicago are almost all by criminals, not armed law abiding citizens who went to the dark side. Increase death penalties to all three time burglars on up(.22 to the head within 2 weeks), and the gun crimes will go down, especially if various periods of torture is used as a deterrent for heinous crimes, too. Raid gang houses and take their guns, stop their cars if they look like them and search without worrying about being PC to minorities.<<
If known or suspected gang members can buy guns outside Chicago, then there is a data base problem because they should be in them. There could be a PC problem, too, because sellers should be able to refuse a sale on the looks of the buyer. If they look weird, look like a gang banger(usually Mex or black) or moll(Mex, black, or white girl who looks like one), shifty eyes, extra nervousness, tattoos and piercings, etc. Yes, the dirty word--->>>profiling, should be used to deny sales<<<<, especially just outside big gang cities. Take away the license to sell if the gun is used in a crime within a few months of purchase. >>>>All guns are test fired with the manufacturer keeping the bullets, which should be in a data base for markings, just like the fingerprint data base..<<<<<!!!!
Far better to do those things than infringe on the rights of the law abiding vast majority. =D> :clap: :mrgreen:

All I want are personal defense weapons like the government has, even if only in 10 shot semi auto versions.
I also want mine in 30.06 or .45, not those wimpy 9mm or .223s!

http://asmdss.com/page/news.html/_/arti ... dment.html

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:17 am 
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The PDW is specified to be 9.75 inches shorter when closed and 3.00 inches shorter when open as compared to the smaller M4 carbine version of the M16. It seems there are some important facts which are overlooked in the attempt to make something appear to be which is not in reality.

Specs on the M4 carbine:

http://www.armystudyguide.com/flashcard ... 23&qnum=32

Buttstock Closed - 29.75 inches
Buttstock Open - 33.00 inches

https://www.fbo.gov/?s=opportunity&mode ... e&_cview=0

Section C

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=09c3d ... 57294a17b3

3.12.1 The overall length of the firearm shall not exceed 30 inches with the stock fully extended.

3.12.2 The overall length of the firearm shall not exceed 20 inches with the stock fully retracted and/or folded.

Everything chambered for the 5.56 N is not an assault rifle is it?

:- :-

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:36 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
It seemed you were concerned with the safety of the law abiding people who followed the law being injured by those who break the law. So you ignored the reason the gun control laws failed in Chicago, why? Never mind, I think the answer is abundantly clear.

Right---CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<HEY!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Why do these people need full automatic weapons? National Protection and Programs?, FEMA?
I would also question why TSA needs full autos at airports where there are so many people around that could be collateral damage if a few terrorists attacked. In fact I question why SWAT teams and the FBI need full autos. I remember the ridiculousness of the movie "The Gauntlet", but remember some of that happening when Patty Heart was kidnapped(building destroyed by trigger happy cops). And, of course, Bonnie and Clyde's car. WTF? Gun crazy cops and the FBI types who use any chance to expend inordinate amounts of bullets(that we the people pay for!!).
>>Chicago must have a lot of corruption seeing 4 out of the last seven governors were put in prison for it.<< >>The 40 murders per month in Chicago are almost all by criminals, not armed law abiding citizens who went to the dark side. Increase death penalties to all three time burglars on up(.22 to the head within 2 weeks), and the gun crimes will go down, especially if various periods of torture is used as a deterrent for heinous crimes, too. Raid gang houses and take their guns, stop their cars if they look like them and search without worrying about being PC to minorities.<<
If known or suspected gang members can buy guns outside Chicago, then there is a data base problem because they should be in them. There could be a PC problem, too, because sellers should be able to refuse a sale on the looks of the buyer. If they look weird, look like a gang banger(usually Mex or black) or moll(Mex, black, or white girl who looks like one), shifty eyes, extra nervousness, tattoos and piercings, etc. Yes, the dirty word--->>>profiling, should be used to deny sales<<<<, especially just outside big gang cities. Take away the license to sell if the gun is used in a crime within a few months of purchase. >>>>All guns are test fired with the manufacturer keeping the bullets, which should be in a data base for markings, just like the fingerprint data base..<<<<<!!!!
Far better to do those things than infringe on the rights of the law abiding vast majority. =D> :clap: :mrgreen:

All I want are personal defense weapons like the government has, even if only in 10 shot semi auto versions.
I also want mine in 30.06 or .45, not those wimpy 9mm or .223s!

http://asmdss.com/page/news.html/_/arti ... dment.html


I do not want some trashing parts of the Constitution to defend their personal beliefs in other parts. I also believe the military should be better educated in the Constitution if that letter was written by such ranking officers as was indicated.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:43 am 
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“[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

–James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

“No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

– Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950]

” … to disarm the people – that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.“

– George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress … to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms…. “

–Samuel Adams

That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

-Virginia Bill of Rights

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Milton Banana wrote:
“[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

–James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

“No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

– Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950]

” … to disarm the people – that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them.“

– George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress … to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms…. “

–Samuel Adams

That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

-Virginia Bill of Rights



Odd that none of the proposed legislations are wanting to ban guns, just restrict the types of guns and magazines but are discussesd as if that were the case. More odd that restictions such as those on fully automatic and explosive weapons seem to be accepted by the same folks. Even more odd that anyone suggesting a reasonable regulation, as specified in the Constitution to help prevent issues that could lead to such a total ban if nothing is done are called traitors.

Strawmen, misrepresentation, ignorance, hypocritical positions, and conspiracy theories abound in too many of the opposition to attempts to follow the Constitution and regulate the ownership.

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