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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Milton Banana wrote:
That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided, as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

-Virginia Bill of Rights


Odd those who oppose the "regulation" of gun ownership also are more likely to support the military, which is a "standing army in time of peace" which should be avoided. Cherry picking is another portion of the disccussion too.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:14 pm 
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“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”
1. — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

“Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

– Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”

– Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.

– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28


Clearly the founders wanted to give the American people the ability to defend themselves. To defend against invasion, and clearly they wanted to give the American people the ability to overthrow their government if need be. You can't do that with "regulated" weapons.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Milton Banana wrote:
“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”
1. — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

“Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

– Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”

– Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.

– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28


Clearly the founders wanted to give the American people the ability to defend themselves. To defend against invasion, and clearly they wanted to give the American people the ability to overthrow their government if need be. You can't do that with "regulated" weapons.


If the "regulated" weapons prevent the people from doing what the founders envisioned and the people as a whole are the "militia", why did those same founders specify the "militia" should be "well regulated"? A hypocritical position at best. Where is all of the opposition to the people being restricted from owning full automatic weaopns, explosive weapons, armed combat aircraft, armed ships, armed armored vehicles, artillery, and even nuclear weapons?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:02 pm 
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SiberD wrote:

You left out the fraud part where worthless bundled MBS's were sold all over the world along with worthless derivatives that are leveraged 100's or even 1,000's of times their value.


And the insistence that they be bailed out if anything goes wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:

But this implied planning which you linked to this reasoning ....

Quote:
The government working with the financial elite will engage in various false flags for various reasons, which includes testing the waters to see how the public will react to tragic events involving firearm use. These include attempts at gun control (which may be irrelevant because U.S. military and police forces, not to mention prison and surveillance systems, are already strong), note reactions in the form of more gun sales, note percentages of citizens calling for more security, etc.

Eventually, beefed-up military and police forces with ground-attack aircraft, drones, artillery, bombs, armored vehicles (all paid for by the public), will overwhelm citizens armed with small arms. Thus, citizens will be controlled ironically with the same armaments that they think will protect them from a government armed by the same source.


That's not planning "to collapse" but to maintain control of the populace. Planning "to collapse the dollar" will be self-defeating as much of their wealth is in the form of paper.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:27 pm 
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The Second is not meant to affirm the right to bear arms, as that right is intrinsic and part of English common law. Rather, the Second uses the right to bear arms to justify the formation of well-regulated militias. The definition of well-regulated militias is found in Art. 1 Sec. 8 and explained in detail in the first two Militia Acts. Those two acts called for conscription of most white males of a certain age range to arm themselves and train with militias regulated by state legislators twice a year, with all militias under the command of POTUS. The first use of the statutes involved using militias to quell the Whiskey Rebellion. Another reason for forming militias was to control Amerindians.

In addition, the Second was revised several times, with "State" replacing "country." That's because there were already militias in place, and several of them were used as slave patrols. With that, states could operate militias for their own use (thus, regulated by state legislators) and could be called by the federal government to serve the country. Thus, militias could operate against whites, slaves, and Amerindians.

A third Militia Act made the statute permanent, a fourth included conscription of African-Americans, and a fifth led to the formation of the National Guard. Later, conscription was removed.

Thus, the Second was not meant to give citizens the ability to overthrow the government. In fact, the contrary idea doesn't even make sense: why would a government give citizens the ability to overthrow it? And why do citizens need affirmation from government to give it the ability to overthrow the latter?

The same argument can even be seen for any who oppose gun control because it is a form of government "tyranny." If one opposes gun control for that reason, then why does one want a government that is already considered "tyrannical" to do the same?

And to recap: ironically, gun control is avoided thanks to lobbying from the arms industry, which in turn sells weapons not only to citizens but to the government for profit.

Finally, in case you are not yet sufficiently confused about this issue, consider this article:

"The Secret History of Guns"

"The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers—the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there’s no resolution in sight."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ns/308608/


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:35 pm 
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“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.”

–Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

“Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American…[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”

–Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

“[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation…(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”

–James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46

“To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.”

–John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)

“That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms … “

– Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Quotes from 200 years ago do little to mitigate the problems we have today. It also ignores the fact too many people are seeking a change in the status quo to ignore for much longer.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Too many people is right. We are grossly overpopulated.
It is good we are a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy or socialist state. :razz:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Too many people is right. We are grossly overpopulated.
It is good we are a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy or socialist state. :razz:


Then I suppose it is good that the people do not directly elect those can change the Constitution ... except they DO directly elect those people and thsy are supposed to follow the will of the people unless they wish to be replaced by someone else.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:11 pm 
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I can understand why some wish these ideas of the founding would just vanish.

-Milton Banana

What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty …. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”

– Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789

… but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights …”
– Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”

– Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836

“The great object is, that every man be armed … Every one who is able may have a gun.”

– Patrick Henry, Elliot, p.3:386

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:26 am 
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Milton Banana wrote:
I can understand why some wish these ideas of the founding would just vanish.

-Milton Banana


No, it is those who ignore the fact the founding fathers set up a growing and evolving system and try to pull the wolrd back a couple of centuries because of their narrow views.

Quote:
What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty …. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.”

– Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789


So you oppose the US military standing forces? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Quote:
… but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights …”
– Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29


Again the same question. In addition you oppose the restriction of the common man from owning a main battle tank complete with all armaments?

Quote:
“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”

– Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836


So you oppose the founding fathers concept of a "well regulated militia" or not?

Quote:
“The great object is, that every man be armed … Every one who is able may have a gun.”

– Patrick Henry, Elliot, p.3:386


And those who are not able? Is that not part of the problem now?

I love the conflicting quotes with no base of ones own. It makes for a hypocritical position to be supported with the ability to claim one is not a hypocrite for supporting it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:38 am 
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"MACHINE GUN
TEARING MY BODY ALL APART

EVIL MAN MAKE ME KILL YA
EVIL MAN MAKE YOU KILL ME
EVIL MAN MAKE ME KILL YOU
EVEN THOUGH WE'RE ONLY FAMILIES APART

**I pick up my axe and fight like A FARMER now.....
(YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN)
HEY AND YOUR BULLETS KEEP KNOCKING ME DOWN

***I PICK UP MY AXE AND FIGHT LIKE A FARMER now......
YEAH BUT YOU STILL BLAST ME DOWN TO THE GROUND

THE SAME WAY YOU SHOOT ME DOWN BABY
YOU'LL BE GOING JUST THE SAME
THREE TIMES THE PAIN
AND YOUR OWN SELF TO BLAME
HEY MACHINE GUN"
Jimi Hendrix 1969

Those full autos(machine guns) in the civilian zone have got to go, and being reduced to fighting with farmers tools (where the gun controllers want to lead us) doesn't cut it against evil men with more firepower.
I have gone from occasional carry to most of the time. In these ever increasingly crazy times, you never know when a good guy will be needed.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Related:

"Second Amendment had ties to slavery"

http://www.jdnews.com/opinion/letters/s ... ry-1.88528

"The Right’s Second Amendment Lies"

"A big obstacle to commonsense gun control is the Right’s false historical narrative that the Founders wanted an armed American public that could fight its own government. The truth is that George Washington looked to citizens militias to put down revolts and maintain order, says Robert Parry."

http://consortiumnews.com/2012/12/21/th ... ment-lies/

"AMERICAN INDIANS & THE 2ND AMENDMENT"

http://www.powwows.com/2011/07/american ... amendment/


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:16 pm 
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https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3952_n.jpg




https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 5638_n.jpg


They say a lot. :mrgreen:

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