EnviroLink Forum

"Hammers kill more than so-called assault rifles, too, yet we need them to build."

When was the last time any of us heard about a mass killing due to hammers?

Here's an article that intentionally takes one specific weapon, rifles, and dishonestly compares it to dozens of weapons; the FBI stats for blunt objects do not differentiate between hammers, clubs, tire irons, nunchuks, bricks, crowbars, baseball bats, beer bottles, billy clubs, poles, cinderblocks, irons, and dozens of other weapons that are used to bludgeon people. It also conveniently leaves out every other type of gun murder.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... ith-Rifles

'fess up Johnny .... ride in on your one trick which is population control. Isn't it? If the US had stricter gun control, fewer people would die .... and this wouldn't be very good for the "environment" and "ecosphere' and all those darn immigrants who are totally destroying the planet. Got your number bud and feeling as bad for your pony as I feel for the imaginary lines.

Population graphs and pollution/depletion graphs are not imaginary lines. Other lines, like with human behavior have to be drawn. People that use any thing to kill others are criminals. People who destroy the biosphere are also criminals to me, whether by over-breeding or by pollution and depletion, greed, over-compassion or over-tolerance. Remember, I've been in real war, flying unarmed medical evacuation helicopters. Real combat injury and medal for valor. I have compassion and tolerance, just not TOO darn much of it. I worked hard and in pain to get what I've got and wish to protect it and my family. Now, I have to put a lousy 1" x 2 3/4" plug in my home defense shotgun to make it only 8 shot, instead of the extra $50 I paid to get that 9th shot. It stinks. Lucky I also have my Taurus Judge Public Defender, too!!! I carry it often, concealed, legally. It is devastating and I don't miss with either hand. Break in and try to steal one of my guitars, go ahead, make my day. I used those jamming too fast shooting toy M-16s in war occasionally, and wouldn't buy one anyway. I used to use medical tape to tape two 18 round magazines together, and still wouldn't waste the money on one or the ammo. For deer hunting, if ever drawn and able, I would use my 54 cal. black powder rifle or my compound bow. For long distance, if I so desired, I would get one like Wayne has and I and my dad had (me only for 3 shots at 14, too much kick!), a 300 Weatherby Magnum bolt action. Of course, that is not a deer rifle, more of a moose gun. Maybe .270 mag instead. I love animals, to eat!!! And for pets, too. We have an Eskimo/Shepard mix and all the animals that live around here are my friends. My friends the birds, squirrels, deer, mice, garter snakes, foxes, racoons and even bears, but not as much( at least not Big Blackie the Grouch)!

https://mail-attachment.googleuserconte ... w&sadssc=1

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

But the second part of your question ("instead of regulating") works against the first ("work more on why").

That makes absolutely no sense because you will end up regulating only what is "most dangerous."



Various polls reveal that even gun owners favor some form of gun control. The reasons are painfully obvious: guns should be kept secure at home, people should learn how to use them properly, etc.



You make it appear that with gun control guns can no longer be used "for protection, hunting, and recreation." But gun control is NOT the same as a gun ban.

The same goes for vehicles. When safety measures are required and people are required to learn how to drive them first before doing so, then that doesn't mean that they may no longer be used for transportation.



From what I know, the right to bear arms is not a constitutional right but a natural right, part of the right to self-defense. That means you have the right to bear arms even if it is not written in the Constitution. BTW, if you are referring to the Second, that doesn't give you the right to bear arms. Rather, it uses the right to bear arms (which doesn't require approval from government) to justify the need to form militias. Finally, the right to bear arms may be abridged by law, which is why, for example, convicts are not allowed that right.



There is no right to smoke cigarettes but the "the pursuit of happiness" allows you to smoke cigarettes. However, rights may be abridged. That's why in various countries minors are not allowed to smoke, and smoking is not allowed in certain areas.

The point that there are "thousands of laws about guns on the books" such that "even more aren't reasonably going to make a difference" ironically works against your views. Did you realize that?

The last point may be seen in light of articles like

http://lewrockwell.com/orig12/shield2.1.1.html

That is, arms proliferation might not lead to decreased violence but will amplify it. It's even likely that rather than use arms to defend themselves against government, citizens will use the same on each other.



As you put it, "[w]e are already too outgunned by the police and military," which makes me wonder where you got the idea that "the only thing keeping us from even a more tyrannical government is so many of us armed." You also forgot to mention that the reason why gun control in the U.S. is much less than that of many other countries is because the arms industry lobbies the government to avoid gun control and in return provides better armaments to the same government. The same arms industry also lobbies government to deregulate arms exports.

Thus, Big Business profits heavily by arming the populace, the government (which passes on the cost to the populace), and other countries (with trade used by the government as part of military aid and deals in exchange for military and economic advantages needed to keep the petro-dollar propped up, which in turn is offered as easy credit to the same populace that uses such to buy small arms and prop up a middle class lifestyle). Instead of gun control measures, the government arms police and military heavily and sets up formidable police and surveillance systems to keep the population in check. Meanwhile, citizens who are heavily in debt and are heavily dependent on Big Business for credit and government for services and tax cuts arm themselves, imagining that they can defend themselves against a tyrannical government that they themselves propped up and that works for a Big Business that provides them with credit and arms.

Finally, the claim that we should not see gun safety, etc., as a problem because we should look at overpopulation first is, again, fallacious for reasons given earlier.

But doing background checks to monitor EDPs may be part of gun control.

Your last statement is completely wrong because it assumes that gun control is the same as a gun ban.

[b]

Population graphs and pollution/depletion graphs are not imaginary lines. Other lines, like with human behavior have to be drawn.

"Think globally; Act locally" is such a cliche by now, and yet, as with most cliches, it holds much truth.
Because if and 'possibly' when the ship goes down, we're all going down with it. So, speaking rationally, global warming and systems depletion of all kinds knows no borders. Of course, exploitation of third world countries and first, second, and third world environments provides a certain lifestyle with certain amenities, for some ...... the depletion of the environment and the exploitation of human beings is an actuality in ALL countries and is linked. While it is linked, it involves us all. Yet, you seem to be particularly concerned with certain borders. Our crisis is a global.

Food for thought ..... the way we treat each other and the way we treat the "environment" (of which we are) is the same. So your insistence on the environment, the ecosphere, the aquifiers, the ..... you know the depth and breadth ..... WITHOUT a direct inquiry about how we treat each other ..... is not constructive. You are looking for people and groups of people to blame. Immigrants in the US are a convenient and easy target because we've all seen the statistics on over-population .... and they are shocking. The population graphs show a trajectory of many more bodies on this planet for quite a few decades ... and then a dropping off. Why would the population reach a turning point and begin to decrease? Because we are simultaneoulsly evolving not just in technology (much of which is haphazard anyway), but also in people communicating with each other and forging communities and sharing ideas. In doing so, we see people doing what they do best. It's the only way if we are to see ourselves through the next few decades where the population will continue along that trajectory of increase. There are close to 7 billion on the planet and there are many more coming. We need to brace ourselves for this coming wave of bodies.

We're not doing well so far and it is coming to a tipping point. This is a critical time and we need to make some choices if we are to survive.

To hold yourself to your particular home, backyard, and family .... because you have fought for it and suffered for it .... is akin to all of us because we all need what you need. What you need and have is what everyone needs ... a roof over your head, and food to eat, and clothes to wear, and the basic securities of life. Do you realize how simple and yet how profound that is? We all need what you need.

Our planet, and therefore WE .... are suffering because we treat the environment the same way we treat each other. And we have turned an abundant planet into one of scarcity. Our systems, the ones we have created, are ensuring our demise. But we were talking about gun control, right? LaPierre is hoping for civil war ..... the American version of Al Queda .... in order to advance their own profits and fear agenda in order to make those profits. They cite gov tyranny .... but fear is the real tyranny and the NRA are exploiting that agenda quite rigorously!

We know this is going to happen again. We know there is this level of aberration in our society. Some have proposed armed presence at our schools and very loudly labeled gun nuts. Arms in schools has worked in other countries. It has worked in Israel, Peru, Philippines, and Thailand. With the bad economy we are seeing law enforcement across this country decimated. From Oakland to Chicago police departments have announced will not respond to burglaries unless the bugler is still there. We are not going to find the funding to pay for an armed presents in our schools anytime soon. What we can do which makes better tactical sense is to enact a volunteer program for any teacher, administrator, janitor, maintenance employee who wishes to carry and go through the training the ability to do so. By training I mean one to three weeks of firearm, tactics, and deadly force training.

One advantage to doing it this way is that a uniformed security or police officer is readily identifiable. At Colombine the shooters knew of an armed presence at the school and staged a diversion at the other end of the campus. Trained unidentified employees make for a much more difficult problem for a planning shooter to surmount, and when it does happen you have the ability to stop an attack much quicker because the first responders are on campus.

Now the training how to respond to an armed attack is a joke. If you look at the Department of Homeland Security’s training film of how to survive workplace violence basically its hunker down under your desk and wait it out. And, that is exactly what our students are instructed to do when gun shots ring out. This is exactly how half of those murders occurred during the Colombine shootings. Kids hiding under tables and desks in the library. This training serves up kids on a platter to murderers.

Lets go back to the late 1950's and look at the fire at Chicago’s Our Lady of Angels Catholic School that took 95 lives. In the time it took the Fire responders to get there many were blocked off and perished. At that time there were no fire extinguisher or fire hoses in the school. That changed. School employees now know exactly where the hoses and extinguishers are and are trained in there use. Schools were retrofitted with fire alarms and sprinklers. Why? To save lives. Every school now has fire drills and every new school is literally built from the ground up to get the kids out as fast as possible. My daughters elementry school has an outside door to every classroom and library. That school can be evacuated in thirty seconds. Logical thinking adults gave the teachers on campus the tools and the training to save lives against a deadly threat.

What happened at Our Lady of Angels is that the nuns told the kids to get under their desks and pray. Today teachers know how to stop bleeding, administer CPR, they know where the fire extinguisher are and the fire hoses and are drilled to get the kids out in case of fire. The armed teacher presents in the next logical step to save the lives of kids considering maniacs target this "gun free" zone on purpose.

Given what is going on in Colorado I can only conclude Democrats are not interested in saving lives. They are only interested in this issue as an opportunity to restrict freedoms. Four major gun bills passed the House and Jessica’s law was killed in committee the week before. One of these laws turned colleges into game preserves where the criminally insane can now hunt our kids without a bag limit. Female students are told by Democrats no your better off with a call box, whistle, or a gun free zone. Women are told no your better off vomiting or pissing yourself to defend against rape.

Average number of deaths where police stop a mass shooting. 14.
Average number of deaths where a citizen concealed carrier stops the mass shooting. 2.

If your a logical reasoning adult it is clear what must happen and what should not happen. This whole argument against protecting our kids and women for the sake of a political issue is quite disgusting really.

_________________
Potato chip enthusiast.

In a vacuum with no other regulations either ...


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/peru

In Peru, only licensed gun owners4 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Peru are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security4

An applicant for a firearm licence in Peru must pass background checks which consider criminal, mental and domestic violence4 records

Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in Peru stipulates4 that a gun licence should be denied or revoked

In Peru, an understanding of firearm safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practical training course is required4 for a firearm licence

In Peru, the law requires17 that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/philippines

In the Philippines, only licensed gun owners25 3 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in the Philippines are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, personal protection, security3

The minimum age for gun ownership in the Philippines is 21 years3
An applicant for a firearm licence in the Philippines undefined26 required to pass background checks

Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in the Philippines stipulates27 that a gun licence should be denied or revoked

In the Philippines, authorities maintain a record28 of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

In the Philippines, the law requires28 29 that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

In the Philippines, a unique identifying mark on each firearm is required by law25

In the Philippines, state authorities carry out25 31 recognised arms tracing and tracking procedures

In the Philippines, state authorities employ28 31 ballistic fingerprinting technology to trace guns and ammunition

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/thailand

In Thailand, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic and semi-automatic rifles24

In Thailand, private possession of fully automatic weapons is prohibited24

In Thailand, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under licence25 26

In Thailand, only licensed gun owners27 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Thailand are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, sports shooting, collection, self-defence27

The minimum age for gun ownership in Thailand is 20 years27

An applicant for a firearm licence in Thailand must pass background checks which consider personal conduct, living condition, income and criminal28 29 records

Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in Thailand stipulates30 that a gun licence should be denied or revoked

In Thailand, authorities maintain a record31 of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

In Thailand, the law requires32 31 that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

In Thailand, a unique identifying mark on each firearm is required by law35 36 31

In Thailand, state authorities carry out31 recognised arms tracing and tracking procedures


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/israel

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Israel are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, self-defence, hunting and sport30 31

The minimum age for gun ownership in Israel is 27 years and 21 years if served in the military30

An applicant for a firearm licence in Israel must pass background checks which consider health, mental and criminal30 records

In Israel gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm licence every 3 years32

In Israel, authorities maintain a record33 34 of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

A licensed firearm owner in Israel is permitted to possess a limited quantity of ammunition35

In Israel, the law requires33 34 that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

Firearm regulations in Israel include32 written specifications for the lawful safe storage of private firearms and ammunition by licensed gun owners

In Israel, a unique identifying mark on each firearm is required by law38 39

In Israel, state authorities carry out34 40 recognised arms tracing and tracking procedures

In Israel, carrying a firearm in plain view in a public place is allowed without a permit32

In Israel, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is allowed without a permit32

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

An unidentified armed guard will not be easy to tell by the bulge of a weapon if they are actually carried on the person or have a delay in acquiring it if the weapon is not on the person.

Of course, none of thei public planning would cause anyone to assume there is a armed guard and act just as was the case in columbine? A couple of weeks of training? Police officers receive several months of training and then are supervised in the field for many more months and that training may not be adequate at times.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

"An unidentified armed guard will not be easy to tell by the bulge of a weapon if they are actually carried on the person"
Not all concealed carry produce an easy to see "bulge". Most are designed specifically not to show. Is that statement "common ignorance"?
The so called amount of training gap depends on the person. Well trained people can lose their cool or make the wrong decision, while supposedly untrained have been very effective in stopping an attack.
We do know that present criminals and many insane or exhibiting violent mental aberrations will not obey laws, so the law abiding will be at a disadvantage, as they have been. The proposed gun bans and regulations will not change that.
I don't believe the jump to ban from some 2/3 preventable incidents has anything to do with saving school kids' lives. I believe it is for more government control over the law abiding.
Colorado has proposed a ban on 9 shot magazines in common home defense shotguns, to 8 shot. Why? As if 8 shots is not deadly? What am I supposed to do, put a 2 3/4" plug in? Or am I a criminal now for having the Mossberg 9 shot? Is it because the police shotguns are 9 shot and then they will have that one shot advantage over a formerly law abiding citizen? You know the crooks won't bother putting in a plug. Hunters, if they are legal, must have a plug to no more than 3 shots for hunting season.
How about all the money spent by the people who have bought those AR15 and other banned types? Is the government going to give them their money back?
If the reason for it were for the general protection, then the police and military should be similarly hamstrung, because many have turned bad, and been in the papers lately more than school shootings. Then again, we would have those criminals and other domestic enemies who just won't obey the rules, just like the enemies in war zones don't obey the Geneva Convention (from communists to moslems) while we "try" to, but even the "good guys" still cause collateral damage.
So what do we do about the common ignorance, government tyranny, and all the scofflaws(including those elected officials who commit felonies)?

Snopes is a scam;
http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data ... 1227232155

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

The smaller frame and caliber carry weapons are more easily concealed, but also have drawbacks of short barrel length and weaker cartridges, but still are not perfect, especially if carried everyday as would have to be the case. Many of the carry systems for women involve a purse, which is not going to be with a teacher at all times. Since the vast majority of teachers are female, unless the they dress differently than before, there will be some issues with concealment.



It is not stopping an attack, but knowing when there is a real threat and how to deal with it. Also there is the safe use of a firearm in an area where many innocnet victims may be hit. The police have much more training and they still have issues with such things.




No, it would probably wirk like the previous ban where the inventory prior to the ban would be allowed to remain and would eventually be removed from the use pool by attrition. I do not think that is a very good method, but it is a cheaper method.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

The Heizer Double Tap. Internal hammer 5/8" thick x 3 1/4" x 3 5/8" 45ACP derringer with 2 quick load in the grip. Or an extended range 1 million volt dart taser disguised as a pointer, book, eraser, or several of each. I have a 31 cal. black powder Judge Roy Bean book single shot derringer. Let me read you a line out of this book!
Or you could be "reasonable" like Canada;
http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/02/in-conse ... ing-green/

Here is a lot more real logic and straight thoughts from my fellow guitar slinger;
http://www.youtube.com/embed/9RABZq5Ioa ... r_embedded

and this one for animal friendly and all the other ignorant anti NRA jerks out there;
http://www.youtube.com/embed/9RABZq5Ioa ... r_embedded

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Normal accuracy in a pressure situation at any distance of maybe 1% since the old rule of thumb for a derringer accuracy was “minute of gambler across a card table (4 – 6 feet)” which is considered knife range as well.



Again not carried on the person and with the need to prevent examination or use which would expose the weapon for what it is. The normal range for non-police issue is 15' with reduced accuracy without sights if designed to look like a book, etc., and even reduced range in the pointer disguise.




Huh?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein