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EnviroLink Forum • View topic - Thinking of Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:37 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Interesting to speculate on what negative thing the Palestinians ever did to America. Nothing that I can see. And we celebrate the conquest of their land by outsiders, a particularly chauvinistic group that call themselves Zionists(Of course within that group there are degrees of chauvinism with the more hard core religious ones now on the ascendancy). I guess this has something to do with guilt about the holocaust. The people in the region responsible for the holocaust aided and abetted by their kin across the sea assuage their guilt by making the Palestinians who had nothing to do with the holocaust pick up the cost.

Of course this is not new in history. Those who escaped the oppression of Europe proceeded to oppress and ethnically cleanse the Native Americans aided by their former oppressors who came to see its advantages.

There is a lot of self-righteous rationalizing but not much genuine morality to be gleaned from history it appears.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Cheer leading the conquest and ethnic cleansing of a people who never did any harm to us I guess is one of those luxuries Americans can indulge in at a distance without major consequences although it's kind of costly and recruits for Jihadist groups. Lying is also part of the fun, like saying Israel has no partner for peace. Israel has turned down generous peace offers(The Saudi proposals) that the PLO and even Saddam Hussein signed on to.

Your bs is pretty much standard issue Wayne. Too bad your ilk weren't around defending Jews when Hitler was on the march. When it comes to dispossessing Palestinian of their homes and olive orchards then you all get excited - right? Is this an Israel first deal with you as in country of first loyalty, or maybe your into the rapture or possibly you work in the arms industry which has made a killing on keeping Israel saturated in arms?

Fortunately knowledgeable fair minded Israelis don't share your blood thirsty attitude toward Palestinians.

This Israeli, former Knesset member, has something to say about the complexities of building peace in the region. He's not like some know nothing apologist for Israel's behavior, trotting out their predictable AIPAC approved responses.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/05/10/ ... e-messiah/


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:38 pm 
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I doubt even the Israeli government would play the Israel-right-to-exist card seriously since Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state has been acknowledged many times by the Palestinian leadership as a negotiating necessity if not desire. A two state solution implies Israel's existence quite obviously. But the nonsubstantive resolution(Obviously they need some negotiating card) hangs around to give Zionist expansionists an excuse to not negotiate seriously.

And yes the 67 border would be the relevant basis for negotiations. Having seized 78% of the rest of Palestine and with the relevant UN resolutions supporting it I don't think that is unreasonable.

Having unwillingly supported with my taxes the seizure of Palestinian land and continued occupation I would nevertheless be willing to have my taxes used to help pay the cost of getting Israel's butt back on the other side of the border. Call it a damage fee for actions that my country was a full collaborator in.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Wayne, why you are so in denial about the relevant facts is beyond me but clearly you want nothing but further grinding down of the Palestinians and further expansion of Israel.

One party invaded and ethnically cleansed the other party and continue their illegal Settlement expansion. And when offered peace they refused it because they wanted to take more and more and more. You obviously have a stubborn loyalty to the hardline in the Israeli government and whatever rationale they want to trot out. In the long run the demographics don't work for Israel and so they guarantee continuing conflict in the region.

You may think you are a friend of Israel but you are really not. Any Israeli seriously dedicated to peace would tell you that.

By the way, if you did a little research on Einstein and his attitude toward Israel's treatment of the Palestinians you would have to conclude he would be on my side of the debate. I seldom have to stray from Israeli and Jewish sources to find full blown criticism of Israeli policies, both now and in the past. Even many Israeli Zionist supporters of Israeli expansionist policies argue its Machiavellian necessity and pooh pooh folks like you who try to give it moral, essentially defensive underpinnings.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:25 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:26 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 6:09 am 
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Which side is giving up territory for peace, but still being attacked? Negotiations are not possible if only one side follows through on the agreements.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... otiations/

1993

Oslo sketched out a peace process with a two-phase timetable. During a five-year interim period, Oslo envisioned a series of step-by-step measures to build trust and partnership. Palestinians would police the territories they controlled, cooperate with Israel in the fight against terrorism, and amend those sections of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) charter that called for Israel's destruction. Israel would withdraw almost entirely from Gaza, and in stages from parts of the West Bank. An elected Palestinian Authority would take over governance of the territories from which Israel withdrew.

After this five-year interim period, negotiators then would determine a final peace agreement to resolve the thorniest issues: final borders (see map), security arrangements, Jerusalem, whether the Palestinians would have an independent state, Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and Palestinian refugees' claims to land and property left behind when they fled Israel.

My comment: The charter was never changed nor was there ever any real attempt to curb the attacks on Israel

1994

Israeli forces withdraw from Gaza and Jericho, the first step in the peace process. Israel remains responsible for Israelis and settlements in these areas; Palestinians are now responsible for public order and internal security for Palestinians, and will act to prevent terror against Israelis in the areas under their control. Some 5,000 Palestinian prisoners who have not participated in attacks against Israelis will be released.

1995

Signed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat, this was the second major step in the Oslo process. Israeli forces would withdraw from the six largest cities in the West Bank. Three percent of the West Bank territory -- which contained approximately one-third of its Palestinian population -- now came under Palestinian Authority jurisdiction. Under Oslo II, the West Bank was to be divided into three areas: one under exclusive Palestinian control; one where Palestinians had civilian control and Israelis controlled security; and one area that would be controlled exclusively by Israel.

1997

After four months of difficult negotiations, Israel agreed to transfer control of the West Bank city of Hebron to the Palestinian Authority. Unlike earlier withdrawals from the West Bank, 20 percent of the city -- the central area where more than 400 Jewish settlers lived among 130,000 Palestinians -- would remain under Israeli control. Palestinians cheered the withdrawal, but Jewish settlers felt betrayed by Prime Minister Netanyahu.

1998

The agreement allowed for the building of an international airport in the Gaza Strip. Israel agreed to pull back from an additional 13 percent of the West Bank and to release 750 Palestinian security prisoners. (Ultimately, only half of the pull-back is done and only 250 prisoners are released.) The Palestinian Authority agreed to combat terrorist organizations, arrest those involved in terrorism, and to collect all illegal weapons and explosives. (Little or none of this is ever done.)

1999

Signed by Yasser Arafat and Israeli's new prime minister, Ehud Barak, this agreement outlined a bold framework and timetable for a "final status" peace agreement. It also listed further redeployments of Israel's forces in the territories: Within a few days, Israel was to transfer 7 percent of the West Bank from its total control to partial control by Palestinians; on Nov. 15, 5 percent more would be transferred; and on Jan. 20, 2000, a third transfer would take place. (By then 40 percent of the West Bank would be under partial or full Palestinian control.) Final-status negotiations would be due by mid-February 2000.

2000

Issues never before discussed at senior levels between Israelis and Palestinians -- Jerusalem, statehood, boundaries, refugees -- were put on the table. Barak and Clinton suggested a path-breaking plan permitting a Palestinian state with a capital in Jerusalem. But the Palestinians criticized Barak for coming to Camp David with a proposal for dividing the West Bank they had already rejected. And,in their eyes, the Clinton/Barak plan would have left the new Palestinian state with significant loss of water and good land, almost split by Israeli annexation running east from Jerusalem, and with Israel getting roughly 9 percent of the West Bank. However, U.S. and Israeli officials contend that throughout the summit, the Palestinians rejected Israeli proposals while offering no proposal of their own. Publicly, both Clinton and Barak blamed Arafat for the failure to reach an agreement on a two-state solution.

2001

Two weeks after the negotiations at Taba, hard-liner Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister, defeating Barak in a landslide. Sharon had consistently rejected the Oslo peace process and criticized Israel's positions at Camp David and Taba.

The Palestinian intifada's cycle of violence continued and escalated. On March 29, 2002, after a suicide bomber killed 30 people, Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield. Israel's troops re-entered Palestinian cities and refugee camps, hunting down terrorists and often leaving massive destruction in their wake.

Three months later, in mid-June 2002, two more suicide bombings struck Israel. Sharon announced Israel would immediately begin a policy of taking back land in the West Bank, and holding it, until the terror attacks stopped.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:09 pm 
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