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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Dingo wrote:
(Slight alteration in the beginning, without changing content, to meet forum embed limitations).

Wayne - I have no friendship for either party, but I do have a strong belief in the truth.

Dingo - Based on your comments I find that frankly unbelievable.

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You mean like your claims the Palestinian leadership has "acknowledged Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state many times"?

Dingo wrote:
By supporting a negotiated two state solution that is an obvious acknowledgement and yes that has been supported by many Palestinian leaders.


No, that is not an obvious acknowledgement.

It's like 2+2=4. It's so obvious I'm not even going to argue the point.


It is obvious that you must leap to that conclusion in order to try to convince yourself you have a point. In reality the point is no more obvious than Hitler's willingness to split eastern Europe with Stalin when the secret agreements were made. The problem is the assumption is not supported by the following actions. The fact that no documents have been changed and that attacks have continued after Israel turned over territory in good faith after negotiations removes the supposed "obvious" assumptions.

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Of course if you don't want serious negotiations you make the Palestinians abandon really the only negotiating card they bring to the table. The disingenuousness of this supposed obstacle is so obvious only sold out apologists for Israel take it seriously.


This is pure BS. If the people of Israel negotiate to give up so much territory they should expect the recognition of their right to exist as a nation as a basis for peace.

Of course, that would be part of the negotiation -duh!


That would require the "giving up" of the only real negotiating card as you put it. You cannot both keep the card and use it in negotiations.

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Here is one fellow's very personal perspective on some of these matters.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/What-I ... 0-764.html


and they clearly show the problem is with the Palestinian view.

It clearly shows the problem is with the Israelis.


Only if you have problems with reading comprehension.

I sent Congresswoman Tsongas a response letter. It most likely was not the response she may have been hoping for. I told her that, having worked in Gaza, it is clear to me that recognition of Israel's Right to Exist would imply acceptance of the notion that Palestinians deserve to be treated as subhumans, a condition to which they are already subjected in violation of the Geneva Conventions of the U.N.

If the people in Gaza cannot recognize Israel's right to exist because it would make them think they deserved to be treated as a subhuman, the problem is with them. Without the recognition of a group's right to exist that group cannot hope to negotiate any meaningful agreement. Anything negotiated can be easily revoked by the destruction of the group which has no right to exist.

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This provides part of the reason that Israel will probably never seriously attempt peace - xenophobic Settler religious fanatics.
http://www.zcommunications.org/a-war-of ... uri-avnery


Do you ever actually read your references? This was about IF the TWO sides were to be more religious than secular. Your bias is very evident when you ignore much of your own reference.

Please try not to be so obtuse. They make it clear where the instigation comes from. And my specific point stands.


Given the previous lack of comprehension of a writing this is to be expected even though there are equal references to the religious problems that would exist on eithe rside whcih does not carry the same weight with a secular group.

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Interesting little piece on the origins of Hamas and Hizbollah, apparently starting off as Israel's babies.
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 325859818/

And then there is the matter of why extreme right wing fanatics, like Brevik, are so enamored of Israel
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 1311959069


Got nothing when I tried to use the links.


Try again. I just tried them and all my links worked.


Nope. Three different computers and all gave the same message.

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And I've said before the right to exist business is handled as part of the peace negotiation. Trying to use this nonissue as a means to sabotage serious negotiation stops here.


It is not a part of the peace negotiation, it is a clear requirement prior to any peace negotiation. If your right to exist must be something you have to try to negotiate, you have no business negotiating with that group especially if you have the ability to destry them because they are going to try to destroy you.

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Also you know perfectly well that the real resolution establishes the 1967 red line as the border, with minor adjustments according to American backed UN Resolutions. Constricting a few settlements is nothing more than throwing a dog a bone and since you know it won't be accepted it amounts to conceding nothing while giving the appearance of compromise.


Given the offer of keeping only 9% of the West Bank was previously made, there is not much constriction necessary except for those who wish to have a Palestinian state instead of Israel.

How about if I occupy your house and then we negotiate a solution. I take your house and you can have the yard. :lol:


Except you never had a house or a yard, it was owned by your neighbor and I acquired it in payment for damages from that neighbor.


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Frankly it is easier for me to understand Zionist obsessions for a Jewish state of their own given so much of Jewish history. What bugs me more is that the US citizenry should get behind a colonial policy which is not in its interest.


It is not a colonial policy.

You're wrong. It was a colony of Britain which then under the Balfour Declaration declared Palestine a Jewish homeland under the pressure of strong Zionist influence and their own colonial ambitions. To make a long narrative short, with Britain pulling out the occupying Zionists simply picked up the ball called themselves a state and went into expansionist mode running off 700,000 Palestinian in a monstrous act of ethnic cleansing.


Odd that you somehow ignore decades of history in leaping from one point to another. Israel did not "go into expansionist mode" the Arabe nations did when they took the land the Palestinians now want to claim. Those same Arab nations tried to take the land from Israel except the Israeli people fought back and kept their land .... unlike the Palestinian people.

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Pissing off Arabs and folks all over the world and enthusiastically backing a recruitment source for Jihadists is not my idea of good policy.


Some are pissed at the existence of Israel, any secular nation, or of any nation not holding certain beliefs.

Before the European Zionists came along and started setting up shop in Palestine there was nothing comparable to European treatment of the Jews on the part of the Muslims.


How did the train of discussion derail so quickly? The leap seemed to put Superman to shame.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:23 pm 
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I went into edit to copy and paste the links and that worked.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/cha ... 325859818/

07/01/12

But along comes the supreme Hamas leader, Khaled Mash’al, and declares that Hamas has given up all violent action. From now on it will concentrate on non-violent mass demonstrations, in the spirit of the Arab Spring.

When Hamas forswears terrorism, there is no pretext for an attack on Gaza.


So no more violent actions since before July 2012? Wow, that means those hundreds of rockets reported on the news did not really happen? It seems the "opinion" piece has little conncetion to reality, which is to be expected given the quality of references provided.

This is a wikisource, but it does list a series of references for support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2012

July

In July, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians launched 18 rockets and 9 mortar shells at Israel in 28 separate attacks.

August

In August, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 21 rockets and 3 mortar shells at Israel in 16 separate attacks.

September

In September, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 17 rockets and 8 mortar shells at Israel in 25 separate attacks.

October

In October, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells at Israel in 92 separate attacks.

November

In November, according to the Israel Security Agency's monthly summary, Palestinians fired 1734 rockets and 83 mortar shells at Israel in 633 separate attacks.

1906 rockets and 158 mortar shells in 794 separate attacks in the six months after the article declaring that "Hamas has given up all violent action" was published. I suppose one can believe in one's belief or one can look at the facts to see if the beliefs are supported. The latter indicates an acceptance of violent action if not a clear desire for it by Hamas. One can assume they really wanted to stop the violence, but the actions do not support that belief.

The other article is not even worth discussing after the rest of the glaring failures.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:55 am 
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http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... so-elusive

The security environment continues to deteriorate. In 2012, the Israeli security service reports, there were 578 terrorist attacks in the West Bank, up from 320 in 2011. On the Gaza border, where Israel once had a security presence, 281 rockets were fired into Israel its last full year there; by 2006, with Israel having left Gaza, the rocket barrage number rose to 1,777. The world looks the other way. Israel is expected to bear all this with grace and fortitude. But it can't. Is there any society that would sit on its hands when its citizens are routinely exposed to death, injury, and destruction?

Imagine Washington under missile attack from nearby Baltimore as a way to understand what it is to be targeted by thousands of rocket and missile attacks from Hamas and Hezbollah. And this is a region that seems to be moving from the era of personal dictators to an era of dictatorial Islamic fundamentalism. When Israelis witness the slaughter in Syria and the world looks the other way, they understand what would have happened to them had they not been strong in 1948 and again in 1973 when Egypt and the coalition of Arab states took them by surprise in launching the Yom Kippur War. They are not inclined to let their guard down again.


http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerma ... iddle-east

All of the efforts that seemed to put progress within reach, from the Oslo process and talks between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat at Camp David to Ehud Olmert's offer to Mahmoud Abbas in 2007 to withdraw from most of the West Bank, have only resulted in intifada and terror, all on the grounds that Israel has been intransigent.

It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Gaza, dismantled every settlement there, withdrew every soldier, gave the land to the Gazans—and got no peace. It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Lebanon, only to see Hezbollah, a puppet of Iran, gain power with the help of the murderous Syrian occupiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2013/03/12/why-middle-east-peace-is-so-elusive

The security environment continues to deteriorate. In 2012, the Israeli security service reports, there were 578 terrorist attacks in the West Bank

That's what happens when you occupy other people's land.

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It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Gaza, dismantled every settlement there, withdrew every soldier, gave the land to the Gazans—and got no peace.

You're shameless. They control the borders, bomb at will, starve them at will and as far as withdrawing Settlements, Arial Sharon made it very clear why he withdrew the Settlements. It had become too expensive to protect them and he wanted to concentrate Settlement building on the West Bank and Jerusalem where security was easier to impose. Apparently you and your Aipac buddies just don't jack enough money out of the American taxpayers to cover the costs. Try harder. :!:

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It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Lebanon, only to see Hezbollah, a puppet of Iran, gain power with the help of the murderous Syrian occupiers.

You did read the article mentioning Israel's role in the rise of Hezbollah as well as Hamas didn't you? A little Karma here I'd say. As for withdrawing from Lebanon I guess they should get the Santa Claus award for exiting another country. Unlike Palestine there was some real effective resistance. I guess they didn't like getting their butts shot off.

Checked my links out again and they all worked fine. Didn't even have to try twice on any of them. As far as my characterization of the links all were accurate although not complete. The fact that you think otherwise is your problem. Anyway folks can read them and decide for themselves.

One thing I'll say for your clueless insistence on a before negotiation requirement that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state; that is the position of every hardline apologist for Israel I've come across. You're all in lockstep on that mindless mantra. And this is despite the fact that no borders have been agreed on and no reciprocal acceptance of a Palestine state is part of this deal. But you folks still play this ridiculous game of demanding something that belongs in the realm of a negotiated settlement.

I don't expect you to change your views Wayne. Ideologues seldom change their views in my experience. My concluding perspective is you are not minimally serious or rational on this matter. You're simply not anchored to reality. But ideologies, religious or otherwise, seem to operate that way.

Go ahead and take your best shot. I'm done.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Dingo wrote:
But you folks still play this ridiculous game of demanding something that belongs in the realm of a negotiated settlement.


If someone's trying to kick my ass, I don't care how big or small they are nor what happened in the past, I'm going to do my best to return the favor.

There's a time, a place, and just the right combination of factors that come together that have to occur before negotiation becomes an option. Lobbing ordnance just about rules it out. But you go telling others they aren't grounded in reality, mkay?

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Dingo wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2013/03/12/why-middle-east-peace-is-so-elusive

The security environment continues to deteriorate. In 2012, the Israeli security service reports, there were 578 terrorist attacks in the West Bank

That's what happens when you occupy other people's land.


So you only have a circular logic with which to work? If that is what happens when you occupy other people's land how far back do you go to determine who owns the land? The Jordanians? The British? The Ottomans? The tribes of Israel?

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It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Gaza, dismantled every settlement there, withdrew every soldier, gave the land to the Gazans—and got no peace.

You're shameless.


At least I can deal with facts rather than beliefs.

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They control the borders,


Because the governing body will not guarantee peace, therefore the border must be controlled to prevent shipments of weapons. It is called security.

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bomb at will,


In response to attacks made upon Israel. Odd that attacks from one side is acceptable in your mind as a path to peace, but a response form the other is not.

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starve them at will


Yet they smuggle in arms rather than food?

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and as far as withdrawing Settlements, Arial Sharon made it very clear why he withdrew the Settlements. It had become too expensive to protect them and he wanted to concentrate Settlement building on the West Bank and Jerusalem where security was easier to impose.


Really? All it would require is to remove the Palestinians, which you seem to believe is the goal, so why not just remove them and be done with it?


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It was "intransigent" Israel that pulled out of Lebanon, only to see Hezbollah, a puppet of Iran, gain power with the help of the murderous Syrian occupiers.

You did read the article mentioning Israel's role in the rise of Hezbollah as well as Hamas didn't you?


The opinion piece?

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A little Karma here I'd say.


And the Karma in response to attacks on Israel is not applicable? Your hypocritical position must be difficult to maintain.

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As for withdrawing from Lebanon I guess they should get the Santa Claus award for exiting another country. Unlike Palestine there was some real effective resistance. I guess they didn't like getting their butts shot off.


Like the Arabs who took the lands from the people of Palestine? No, you don't count that do you? Maybe because it was them who lost the lands due to the contiual war footing?

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Checked my links out again and they all worked fine. Didn't even have to try twice on any of them. As far as my characterization of the links all were accurate although not complete. The fact that you think otherwise is your problem. Anyway folks can read them and decide for themselves.


I am sure they can and they should have a better comprehension of how not being able to recognize the right of Israel to exist would make that a problem for any peace plan and would be a cause directly attributed to the Palestinians.

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One thing I'll say for your clueless insistence on a before negotiation requirement that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state; that is the position of every hardline apologist for Israel I've come across.


If you cannot see where such a point would have to be in place in order for anyone to begin to believe the negoiations are going to be made in good faith, there is nothing which can be done to remove your ignorance. Given the stated goals of destruction, why would lying not be used in the process?

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You're all in lockstep on that mindless mantra. And this is despite the fact that no borders have been agreed on and no reciprocal acceptance of a Palestine state is part of this deal.


Nor should there be. If I repeatedly say I am going to kill you over an extended period and then wish to negotiate an agreement to partially disarm you, would you trust me to negoiate in good faith?

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But you folks still play this ridiculous game of demanding something that belongs in the realm of a negotiated settlement.


Not in the real world, but then again that seems to be unrelated to where you are getting your information.

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I don't expect you to change your views Wayne.


Good, because it would be stupidity to follow your views.

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Ideologues seldom change their views in my experience.


That is probably why you ignore history and logic in yuor beliefs.

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My concluding perspective is you are not minimally serious or rational on this matter.


Given the level of rationality you have provided, I believe I can take that as a compliment considering the source.

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You're simply not anchored to reality.


Actually, I am. You on the other hand seem to be anchored to a cloud.

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But ideologies, religious or otherwise, seem to operate that way.

Go ahead and take your best shot. I'm done.


No, you never were able to start a rational defense of your position.

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:41 pm 
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http://www.jstor.org/stable/2187520?seq=2

Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Nations

I "Every nation has the right to exist, and to protect and to conserve its existence."

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2187520?seq=2

Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Nations

I "Every nation has the right to exist, and to protect and to conserve its existence."


How about our existence?
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorial ... osques.htm

:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:25 am 
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One doesn't have to look far to see the politics of IBD is rightwing nutcase. Just the comments on their site show the kind of xenophobic whack jobs they attract. Until I see it from an objective source I don't believe a word of the article.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:50 pm 
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The best thing for the entire world would be the non-existence of the islam cult and its followers :twisted: :crazy: . IMHO :clap: =D> :clap: =D> :clap: =D> :razz: :mrgreen: 8) :x :lol: [-X [-o< \:D/ =D> :clap: =D> #-o \:D/

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:59 pm 
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How about the Christian cult and its followers?


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
The best thing for the entire world would be the non-existence of the islam cult and its followers :twisted: :crazy: . IMHO :clap: =D> :clap: =D> :clap: =D> :razz: :mrgreen: 8) :x :lol: [-X [-o< \:D/ =D> :clap: =D> #-o \:D/

After that a general non-existence most of the rest, in the way of evolving to stronger and smarter people back to the population of 10K or more years ago, or a new well determined sustainable long term level.
http://www.amilimani.com
About 4 or 5 years ago he wrote a treatise on how islam met all the characteristics of a cult. He had been through it.
I suppose A number of Christian sects are in the same category except only generally harmful to themselves, or with over-breeding, to the whole biosphere. Again, IMHO.
Personally, I would like to see the end of all foreign aid except in free contraception and Eco-education, and the the money saved to help go emissions and debt free. The USA should have been leading they way in that direction many years ago. IMHO
I agree that Israel deserves its nationhood in the area they lived several thousand years and given to them from the winning powers of WWII. Their religion does not say to kill all who do not believe the way they do or to lie in furtherance of their religion is acceptable practice. They are in an overpopulated place, too. Just like the entire planet. Give them free contraceptive and Eco-educational help like most others, especially first, our own nation. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:20 am 
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Too bad you've got your environmentalism mixed up with sick bigotry.

Muslims were talking about the problem of exponential growth long before Malthus came along. Your cluelessness about Christian cults colonizing, murdering and wrecking the planet far more than anything Muslims ever imagined is stunning. And of course out breeding everybody. It's perversely consistent that you would arrogantly support the anti-Semitic pogrom, holocaust producing Christians shoving Israel down Muslims throats as a kind of "sorry" gesture. You've got a little problem with your supposed no aid to foreigners policy when Israel is the biggest aid sucker we have. But then they only ethnically cleanse Muslim and Christian Palestinians.


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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Sick bigotry? Ethnic cleansing by Jews? Plus more pro-moslem claptrap. Are you a moslem? =P~
You sure seem like one, lying in furtherance of the kill cult =P~ :twisted: [-X :-& =;

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 Post subject: Re: Thinking of Israel.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
Sick bigotry? Ethnic cleansing by Jews? Plus more pro-moslem claptrap. Are you a moslem? =P~
You sure seem like one, lying in furtherance of the kill cult =P~ :twisted: [-X :-& =;

I'm not a member of any religion but I do know you are an historical moron and a bigot. It would seem appropriate to take your hate speech over to another site and stick to environmentalist issues over here minus your genocidal impulses. :twisted:


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