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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:27 am 
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Dingo wrote:
It might be useful to determine where you cut off the line between city and town. Concentrated groups of people do supply the diversity to make life interesting, not to mention rural market places and the materials and skill sets and means to develop many of the implements of rural life. Quality ploughs, carriages, and say barbed wire are hard to create out in the sticks.


I agree and there was no mention of food. There is only a limited amount of arable land which can produce food and to return us to an agrarian society would have to include a dramatic reduction in population one way or another. The modern production levels could not be maintained and to add the numbers of people in small groups could not ensure everyone had sufficiet arable land without the associated destruction of chunks of that land for housing and associated uses.

If people are to live on what they can grow or provide for themselves, the addition of the urban dwellers to rural locations will help ensure many do not do either .... provide enough for themselves or live.

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Sir David remarks on insanity of growth,
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/atten ... 2n3pg.html

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:53 am 
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Millions in this world have died for trivial reasons.

Millions in this world have killed for trivial reasons.

Millions have died and killed for Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions.

Only a handful have died for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

Only a handful have killed for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Radical Actions are needed.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Do it Now.

A few years later would be too late.

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**Oath of Pseudo Environmentalists in Industrial Society**

Violence is Wrong....Violence is Unacceptable.

We will not indulge in violence to save environment.

We are willing to participate in violence against nature but not against man.

Violence against nature is okay, violence against man is not.

We are willing to witness the Torture, Slaughter and Decimation of millions of other species but not violence against man.

We are willing to witness the destruction of environment till the time there is no environment left on earth but we will not tolerate violence against People and Institutions that are destroying the environment moment by moment.

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People who think they are Non Violent are highly mistaken.

No one is Non Violent in Industrial Society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Industrial Society has killed billions of farm animals in Slaughter Houses and billions of wild animals in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of animals.

Industrial Society has killed billions of Trees in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of Trees.

Industrial Activity has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste.....This waste has polluted and poisoned air, water and soil....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita waste which is a measure of per capita killing of air, water and soil.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Even those amongst us who are living very simple lives are still using at least some consumer goods and services whose production and use destroys nature directly or indirectly.

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** No punishment for the biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the crime which is billions of times bigger than the next biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the torture, slaughter and decimation of millions of species????.....No punishment for destruction of most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth???? **

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

No punishment for poisoning the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste???

No punishment for killing billions of acres of fertile soil [that was the source of food to millions of species] with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt???

No punishment for decimating fish in the oceans????.....No punishment for turning oceans acidic and warmer????.....No punishment for creating oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans???

This planet belonged to millions of species, not just man alone.

Man has taken over the entire planet....The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

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This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

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A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:30 am 
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To sum up sushi's message into a mantra it appears to be:

DESTROY INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY, GO RURAL!

I prefer my less explicitly aggressive mantra:

MORE TREES, LESS PEOPLE!

To which I would add:

TOOLS FOR NEED, NOT GREED!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:36 pm 
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What do we do about this? Read it and you will see someone else who destroys mind and environment,,,,sickening.

http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmak ... rentPage=1

:x :evil: :x :evil: :x :twisted: ](*,) :x :evil: :cry: :x :x :crazy: :evil: :x #-o :x :evil: [-X [-o< :-& :x :evil: :-#

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:09 am 
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Industrial Nations are used to threatening their adversaries with Military Might and Nuclear Weapons.

How are they going to deal with Climate which is getting more and more extreme day by day???

Are they going to nuke Hurricanes and Tornadoes too???

Are they going to nuke Droughts and Floods too???

The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too.

The day is not far when Agriculture will collapse worldwide due to extreme and irregular weather.

What is man going to eat???.....He has already decimated fish in the oceans.
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Industrial Society is a lunatic society which talks about Justice, Welfare, Morality and Equality after torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species and destroying Forests, Rivers and Oceans.
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Jobs or Environment???

Economy or Environment???

This is just unbelievable.....The very fact that man needs to debate this issue shows how insane Industrial Society is.

Without environment man will not even exist.

Jobs have destroyed Environment....Urban Jobs have destroyed Environment.

Economy has destroyed Environment....Millions of other species don't need an economy to live on earth....Human species is the only lunatic one which thinks it needs one.

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a disease and insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

Billions of pages of discussion is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
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Industrial Society is a lunatic society that takes pride in keeping its cities clean but is not ashamed of littering the entire planet with Industrial Waste.

The entire planet has turned into a Landfill, Garbage Dump, Toxic Dump.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and contaminated with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Industrial Activity produces three kinds of Industrial Waste......Solid, Liquid and Gaseous......There are only three places on earth where this waste can go - Air, Water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where it can go.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.
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Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:55 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
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Economy or Environment???

This is just unbelievable.....The very fact that man needs to debate this issue shows how insane Industrial Society is.

Without environment man will not even exist.


Well there is that delay effect. I remember the story of the goose that laid the golden egg. Apparently they got enough eggs from the killing to keep subsequent generations loaded with eggs. And then the eggs ran out. They weren't good at long term thinking.

It is amazing to me in my long history on discussion forums how many people don't get that the economy in embedded in the environment. They think it is vice versa. Apparently folks can be "educated" to believe anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Great post Sushi and I agree except for these last two points;
"Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities."

I think education does not include enough mandatory ecological subjects, and to really understand it requires a higher IQ than average.
It would be good for the biosphere and humanity of the future if all people below 120 IQ were sterilized immediately in addition to the changes in education.
We can't really just close down the cities. They will collapse on their own by mid century. However, if we could destroy the 500 most populous cities it would have a positive effect on the environment. This could be done if we are careful not to exceed the amount of radiation and aerosols that could destroy the rest of the biosphere. Perhaps selectively inoculating these cities with a variety of diseases could do it, too.
It seems to be cold hearted to care more about the future of our biosphere and species, plus other species, but it is not. :mrgreen:

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“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:52 pm 
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How about killing everybody with an IQ above 80, then we could be assured civilization with all its ills would collapse.

All these self-declared mensa geniuses are trying to guarantee environmental topics are some kind of home for genocidal maniacs. :crazy:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Speciation would be nice but the chances of it happening before the AETM ELE are about nil. :cry: :mrgreen:


Here is a good site for the subject;
http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/
which led to this from 4 days ago:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... he-arctic/

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:53 am 
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Supreme Courts and other courts of the world will never stop Industrial Projects that are destroying Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers,Oceans and Atmosphere..

Filing petitions in courts to save environment is a total waste of time.

Courts are Urban Institutions....Most of the Higher courts operate from Cities....They employ Urban People.

Urban Courts will always promote the interests of Urban Population, Not the interests of Villagers, Tribal People, Fishermen or Forests, Rivers and Oceans.

Cities are the destroyers of Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers and Oceans.

Supreme Court judges are Urban Dwellers....If there is no electricity in the city their offices and homes will go dark, their air conditioners will stop working, So they will always give clearance to all kinds of Energy Generation Projects.....Urban Living requires an endless supply of Metals and Minerals, So they will always give clearance to all kinds of Mining Projects.

The children of Supreme Court Judges are studying in Urban Schools and Universities....After passing out they will need jobs....All Urban Jobs are connected with Industrial Activity, directly or indirectly.....Therefore Supreme Court Judges will always promote Industrial Activity without which their children will have no jobs in future.

Judges might pretend to be working for the oppressed by stopping Industrial Projects for a few months but ultimately the approval is sure to come after the farce of Review Committees and Expert Panels all of whose members are Urban Dwellers once again.

Millions of Industries and Corporations are destroying environment....How many Industries and Corporations have been shut down by Courts in the entire world???

No Anti Industrial Protest for saving environment can succeed in this world without fixing the problem of Urban Population and Urban Education.

[And even if a few protests do succeed it is hardly going to make a difference when millions of Industries and Corporations are destroying environment moment by moment]

Almost the entire Urban Population of the world is employed in the Industrial Sector and is promoting Industrial Activity.

All Industrial Activity of the world is being run and promoted by University Graduates.

Whenever a new Industrial Project comes up anywhere whose implementation would destroy Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers or Oceans, a few hundred/ thousand local people and activists start protesting against the Project whereas millions of Urban People [which includes Governments and All Industrial/ Financial Organizations] start lobbying for the Project.

This is a very Unequal Battle which can never be won by the minority which is trying to save environment.

The battle has already been lost.....The Planet is dying and gasping for last breath.

Nuclear Power Plants, Coal Power plants, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Tar Sands, Fracking Industry, Monsanto.....None of these industries that are destroying environment can be stopped without fixing the problem of Urban population and Urban Education.

The source/ cause of all Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is Urban Work and Urban Education.

Destruction of environment can never be stopped unless Urban Work is stopped and Universities are closed down.

Urban Work is the problem.....Urban Work is the enemy.

Urban Education is the problem.....Schools and Universities are the enemy.

Industries and Corporations can never be stopped without stopping the Universities that are producing Millions of Scientists, Engineers, MBA's, Economists, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.
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Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:15 am 
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You would definitely like to get involved with this website which seems made for you, seeing it has the similar title to your ongoing 7+ year post.
http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/

The first essay with links is from June 14, 2013 called "Creating Hell on Earth". The one down a ways after reading that is from Friday 6/12/2013 called "Peak Meat and Other Threats to the World's Food Supply".


Lots of links to various tied in subjects to the sides, especially left side. :mrgreen:

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“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:22 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
.
Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Sushi, why don't you make things easier on yourself and say "I'm a luddite and advocate a paleolithic condition" or whatever it is you are after. All you do is holler negatives against modern urban society and never quite specify where you want to go. "Rural" is too general. Get specific.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:36 am 
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Luddism is the normality, Industrial Technology is the anomaly.

This world was luddite for millions of years.....Industrial Machines have existed for only 250 years.

Luddism did not destroy Biodiversity and Ecosystems for millions of years.....Industrial Machines have destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years [Actually in just 100 years since most of the world became industrialized only in the last 100 years].

Animals did not use Industrial Machines for millions of years and did not destroy environment for millions of years.

Hunter_Gatherer Society did not use Industrial Machines for 1 million of years and did not destroy environment for 1 million years.

Agrarian Society did not use Industrial Machines for 10,000 years and caused very limited destruction of environment in 10,000 years.

Industrial Society used Industrial Machines and has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years....In fact Industrial Society has existed for only about 100 years....Although Industrial Revolution started 250 years ago, most of the world became heavily industrialized only in the last 100 years....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed this planet.....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed what was not destroyed in millions of years on earth.

Humans have spent more than 99.9% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable on earth.

sushilydv wrote:
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:58 am 
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Let's not kid ourselves. When modern human beings emerged on the scene some 50 to 100 thousand years ago the dye was cast. The paleolithic Indian hunted to extinction the horse in North America and agriculture accelerated the extinction process. Sure, industrial society is the worst destroyer but what preceded set the precedents and took us there.

What we need is a positive model for man as he is that will sustainably take us into the future. Simply damning an urban world which provided you with the ability to communicate in writing and disseminate that writing seems somehow beyond a certain point odd. You are in fact part of that corporate industrial world 24/7. It kind of reminds me of that Mort Sahl line about the kid wanting to run away from home but insisting on being given the keys to the car.

The challenge is to take man with all his sins and faults and direct him in some positive way into a sustainable world. And if that world takes something from the modern world that is useful, like say written language and some sort of printing capability, what's the problem?


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