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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:22 pm 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vep0YbndO14


From the report referenced ... a significantly different story:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpin ... rdID=11970



The committee recommends the use of "high-throughput assays" -- rapid, automated experiments that can test hundreds or thousands of chemicals over a wide range of concentrations -- to evaluate chemicals' effects on these toxicity pathways. On the basis of data from these and other experiments, researchers could develop models to describe responses in toxicity pathways, and other models to estimate the human exposure necessary to produce responses in these pathways.



Over time, the need for traditional animal testing could be greatly reduced, and possibly even eliminated someday, says the report. For the foreseeable future, however, targeted tests in animals would need to be used to complement the in vitro tests, because current methods cannot yet adequately mirror the metabolism of a whole animal.


Studies observing human populations will be needed to provide information on human susceptibility and "background" exposures to chemicals that people face every day, so that results of the in vitro tests can be properly interpreted. These population studies may also reveal health risks not previously identified through toxicity testing. In addition, human exposure data can be used to select doses for toxicity testing, so that the tests generate information on biological effects at environmentally relevant exposures. By comparing human exposure data with concentrations that cause biologically significant alterations in toxicity pathways, researchers can identify potentially harmful exposures.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:27 pm 
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It is rather hard to argue with someone whose knowledge seems to be based on youtube and wikipedia while ignoring real sources about research and testing that are readily available.... sigh....

Empathy requires insight into another's mind, 'theory of mind'. Despite a long line of experiments, even in chimpanzees, advanced theory of mind of the kind that humans have has not been demonstrated yet. Kanzi knows several hundred 'words" but took years to acquire those where some dogs can do the same in a fraction of the time.... by all means argue against testing, Letizia, but develop a solid argument based on evidence first, just like any researcher must do before animals may even be used....


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Cobie, I can accept you criticize the use of Wikipedia because everyone can write there without know the facts.

I can't accept that you criticize the use of youtube as a source of documents.
What's better than a video by which you can see with your eyes??? :?:

And please, Cobie and Wayne, don't tell me animals have no empaty! :!:

Animals are used by vivisectiors as models of human neuropsychiatric disorder:

Modeling of human neuropsychiatric disorders in animals is extremely challenging given the subjective nature of many symptoms, the lack of biomarkers and objective diagnostic tests, and the early state of the relevant neurobiology and genetics. Nonetheless, progress in understanding pathophysiology and in treatment development would benefit greatly from improved animal models. Here we review the current state of animal models of mental illness, with a focus on schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. We argue for areas of focus that might increase the likelihood of creating more useful models, at least for some disorders, and for explicit guidelines when animal models are reported.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20877280

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000076/CH.html

To create an animal model of depression, anxiety, posttraumatic stress, obsessive-compulsive disorder, alcoholism, autism, schizophrenia, anorexia, drug addiction, or spinal cord injury, a facsimile of the conditions of the disorder or disease is induced in an animal. This is accomplished by manipulation of the animal’s behavior and environment, invasive procedures to the brain and body, or genetic engineering. Animals are subjected to food, water, and sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, long-term physical restraint, social isolation, maternal separation, electric shocks, limb amputation, and brain damage and manipulation through the use of electrodes surgically implanted into the brain.
Source: http://www.neavs.org/research/cbt

"Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals, and the answer is: "Because the animals are like us".
Ask the experimenters why it is morally ok to experiments on animals , and the answer is: " Because the animals are not like us".
Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction." Charles R. Magel


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:59 pm 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
Cobie, I can accept you criticize the use of Wikipedia because everyone can write there without know the facts.

I can't accept that you criticize the use of youtube as a source of documents.
What's better than a video by which you can see with your eyes??? :?:


Because what you see may not be correct or accurate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naW08rOSnMI

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And please, Cobie and Wayne, don't tell me animals have no empaty! :!:


Ok, I will not tell you there is no Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, or Santa Clause either. It is the truth, but you do nto want to hear the truth it seems.

Quote:
Animals are used by vivisectiors as models of human neuropsychiatric disorder:

Modeling of human neuropsychiatric disorders in animals is extremely challenging given the subjective nature of many symptoms, the lack of biomarkers and objective diagnostic tests, and the early state of the relevant neurobiology and genetics. Nonetheless, progress in understanding pathophysiology and in treatment development would benefit greatly from improved animal models. Here we review the current state of animal models of mental illness, with a focus on schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. We argue for areas of focus that might increase the likelihood of creating more useful models, at least for some disorders, and for explicit guidelines when animal models are reported.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20877280

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000076/CH.html

To create an animal model of depression, anxiety, posttraumatic stress, obsessive-compulsive disorder, alcoholism, autism, schizophrenia, anorexia, drug addiction, or spinal cord injury, a facsimile of the conditions of the disorder or disease is induced in an animal. This is accomplished by manipulation of the animal’s behavior and environment, invasive procedures to the brain and body, or genetic engineering. Animals are subjected to food, water, and sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, long-term physical restraint, social isolation, maternal separation, electric shocks, limb amputation, and brain damage and manipulation through the use of electrodes surgically implanted into the brain.
Source: http://www.neavs.org/research/cbt


And this is supposed to give evidence ot emapthy how?

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"Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals, and the answer is: "Because the animals are like us".
Ask the experimenters why it is morally ok to experiments on animals , and the answer is: " Because the animals are not like us".
Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction." Charles R. Magel


Animals are like us in they are complete living entities, and unlike us in they are not sentient (under the real scientific definition of the term).

Apes are like us in they have a generally bipedal method of locomotion, but that does not make tem like us in all other areas. Context is a wonderful thing if it is not ignored.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Wayne, your video show a whale killing a men for NEED to eat FOOD. Whales are used throwing hight and shaking their victims to make their meat softer. There is always a natural reason why animals make someone else suffer.

So now you are saying that animals are not sentient in the scientific way????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't you know in the TFUE founding the European Union, signed by European leaders with the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007, at the article 13 you read: In the formulation and in the realization of the European Union politics in the sectors of agriculture, fishing, tranports, internal market, research and technological and special development, the European Union and the Member States fully consider the needs in subject of animal welfare as SENTIENT BEEINGS, respecting at the same time the legislative and administrative disposals and the customs of the Member States, regarding, in particular, religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage.

It seems in EU we are very advanced in animal rights like we are for human rights. USA with the capital punishment and with war crimes can only hide comparing with the high cultural level of EU.
USA are good only in doing wars and producing and selling arms.
You miss the heritage that Europe acquired in more than 2 millenni.

"Animal are not sentient in the scientific way".... I can say the same about you, about USA politics, everyone can say this about someone else. What's the proof of your statement?

Don't you know in the Middle Age the people thought that the black people were not sentient so can be enslaved. And in the Middle Age in European Universities academics were debating that women were without the spirit, so for them no sentient....

Really I don't understand if your vacuity come from the influence of catholic religion or what else.
I hope you understand human evolution and Charles Darwin discoveries.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:15 pm 
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and here a whale jumping for joy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html

It seems you had always lived isolated from the world. :neutral:
Have you ever watched an animal documentary in all your life?
:-s


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:52 am 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
Wayne, your video show a whale killing a men for NEED to eat FOOD. Whales are used throwing hight and shaking their victims to make their meat softer. There is always a natural reason why animals make someone else suffer.


No, my video shows what editing and special effects can do to fool your eye. This was made as a TV commercial.

Quote:
So now you are saying that animals are not sentient in the scientific way????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes, they are not.

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Don't you know in the TFUE founding the European Union, signed by European leaders with the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007, at the article 13 you read: In the formulation and in the realization of the European Union politics in the sectors of agriculture, fishing, tranports, internal market, research and technological and special development, the European Union and the Member States fully consider the needs in subject of animal welfare as SENTIENT BEEINGS, respecting at the same time the legislative and administrative disposals and the customs of the Member States, regarding, in particular, religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage.


That was writted by politicians not scientists, with a lot of inaccurate input from those like yourself. It also says to consider their needs as sentient beings, not that they are sentient beings, which is considerably different. The AR movement has "modified" definitions to try to assist in meeting their goals. The definitions of sentient and vivisection are two.

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It seems in EU we are very advanced in animal rights like we are for human rights. USA with the capital punishment and with war crimes can only hide comparing with the high cultural level of EU.
USA are good only in doing wars and producing and selling arms.
You miss the heritage that Europe acquired in more than 2 millenni.


That is your opinion, too bad the EU economy goes on life support when the US economy catches a cold.

Quote:
"Animal are not sentient in the scientific way".... I can say the same about you, about USA politics, everyone can say this about someone else. What's the proof of your statement?


The lack of any publication with evidence of a species wide exhibition of sentience.

Quote:
Don't you know in the Middle Age the people thought that the black people were not sentient so can be enslaved. And in the Middle Age in European Universities academics were debating that women were without the spirit, so for them no sentient....


Yes, I do. That does not give evidence for anything other than history.

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Really I don't understand if your vacuity come from the influence of catholic religion or what else.
I hope you understand human evolution and Charles Darwin discoveries.


Not even close to Catholic and I do understand Darwin very well. I also understand the application of human attibutes to the action of animals without evidence to support that belief.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:57 am 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
and here a whale jumping for joy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html

It seems you had always lived isolated from the world. :neutral:
Have you ever watched an animal documentary in all your life?
:-s



You assume it is "joy" because that is what you believe you would feel in that situation. That is not evidence of "joy" being involved with the communication between whales. This is why watching is not the whole story.

From your link:

But the adorable whale calf was doing more than just jumping for joy.

British biologist and dive guide Justin Hart, 44, who took the pictures, says that young whales communicate with older ones in the ocean by creating a slamming sound which travels through the water to the ears of the adults deep below.

By leaping out of the water and slamming its 12ft long body onto the surface of the sea up to 30 times, the baby whale is telling its relatives where it is so they can regroup.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:22 am 
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It seems the joke is more widespread .....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23322774

"There are plenty of other ways to make sure drugs and treatments are safely tested without using chimpanzees in experiments," Ms Conlee says. [Kathleen Conlee, Vice President, Animal Research Issues, The Humane Society of the United States]. "For example, in vitro experiments that use human tissue are one possibility, or the use of transgenic mice could be another option."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:51 am 
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"Animals are not sentient in the scientific way" tell me who told you this. Or tell me how did you reach this conclusion.

"to consider their needs as sentient beings, not that they are sentient beings, which is considerably different" it's not different. It means in European Union animal welfare is important because animals are sentient beings.
"As" is my personal translation from an Italian book.

You can read the official English version online:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 199:en:PDF
"The European Union and the Member States, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting..."

About chimpanzees: http://www.releasechimps.org/laws/international-bans
"In 2007, attention was placed on revising the European Union (EU)’s laboratory animal welfare laws under Directive 86/609/EEC. On November 5, 2008, the European Commission adopted a proposal to revise the Directive that included a ban on the use of great apes (including chimpanzees) in scientific procedures except in cases of “conservation of the species itself” or in the case of “a serious pandemic affecting the human population of Europe.” (1) In 2010, the EU ban on the use of great apes in research was made official under Directive 2010/63/EU. The new Directive will not go into effect until January 2013, giving the EU’s 27 member states two years to transpose the provisions of the new Directive into national legislation."

Thank you very much for your link from BBC. You can see that after EU, and other Asian countries, USA is thinking to forbid the use of chimpanzees.
In some years we will arrive to recognize that non only chimpanzee have the right to not be used in research, but all animals have this right.

Concerning the whale jumping AFTER using the underwater sonar he found his relatives. He was jumping because he was HAPPY to have found his relatives and to have the opportunity to reach them as soon as possible.
All the news is based on the expression of joy of the whale. There will not be a news if the whale was jumping to be found.
He has the sonar to communicate with other whales. He doesn't need to jump as the other whales stay under the surface. The other whales watch and make noise to communicate UNDER the sea surface.
Jumping OUT of the sea is only a feeling expression, an emotion. And we know very well that animals express lots of emotions.
But we are more used to see a dog wagging his tail or a cat purring than a whale jumping \:D/

Regarding USA politics of economic aid to Europe that's because Europe was the only foreign market for USA.
USA was needing to sell product to Europeans, like he did mainly in the '50-'60.
And the reconstruction of Europe was a very good financial investment for USA :arrow: money

And we have to remember that for the revenge of pearl Harbor USA throw 2 atomic bombs on Japan causing the death of millions of innocent civilians. :evil:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:38 am 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
"Animals are not sentient in the scientific way" tell me who told you this. Or tell me how did you reach this conclusion.


There is a big debate in the philosphical realm over this, which brings in the science aspects. The evidence even for chimpanzees is at best for 70-75% of the species.

Quote:
"to consider their needs as sentient beings, not that they are sentient beings, which is considerably different" it's not different. It means in European Union animal welfare is important because animals are sentient beings.


No, the statement is they are to be treated as sentient beings, which can be done of plants or animals, but does not indicate either groups are sentient.

Quote:
"As" is my personal translation from an Italian book.

You can read the official English version online:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 199:en:PDF
"The European Union and the Member States, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting..."


Politicians can define anything in any way in legislation because the legal definition used is opart of said legislation. That does not make the definition scientific, just popular with the politician.

Quote:
About chimpanzees: http://www.releasechimps.org/laws/international-bans
"In 2007, attention was placed on revising the European Union (EU)’s laboratory animal welfare laws under Directive 86/609/EEC. On November 5, 2008, the European Commission adopted a proposal to revise the Directive that included a ban on the use of great apes (including chimpanzees) in scientific procedures except in cases of “conservation of the species itself” or in the case of “a serious pandemic affecting the human population of Europe.” (1) In 2010, the EU ban on the use of great apes in research was made official under Directive 2010/63/EU. The new Directive will not go into effect until January 2013, giving the EU’s 27 member states two years to transpose the provisions of the new Directive into national legislation."

Thank you very much for your link from BBC. You can see that after EU, and other Asian countries, USA is thinking to forbid the use of chimpanzees.
In some years we will arrive to recognize that non only chimpanzee have the right to not be used in research, but all animals have this right.


They have a right they did not grant, nor can they understand? More like a protection you how humans will grant rather than a true right.

Quote:
Concerning the whale jumping AFTER using the underwater sonar he found his relatives. He was jumping because he was HAPPY to have found his relatives and to have the opportunity to reach them as soon as possible.


Not according to the portion of the link I quoted. You have a hard time using the reference to support your belief when you have to discount large portions of it.

Quote:
All the news is based on the expression of joy of the whale. There will not be a news if the whale was jumping to be found.


The assumption of the whale jumping for joy is the story, but the real story was outside the headlines and in the portion I quoted.

Quote:
He has the sonar to communicate with other whales. He doesn't need to jump as the other whales stay under the surface.


So you are saying the article to which you linked was incorrect in making that statement, but not in the your assumption of "joy" being involved. So much selective belief.

Quote:
The other whales watch and make noise to communicate UNDER the sea surface.
Jumping OUT of the sea is only a feeling expression, an emotion.


Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines.

Quote:
And we know very well that animals express lots of emotions.


We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather.

Quote:
But we are more used to see a dog wagging his tail or a cat purring than a whale jumping \:D/


Yes, and some of us leap to many conclusions about what we see.

Quote:
Regarding USA politics of economic aid to Europe that's because Europe was the only foreign market for USA.
USA was needing to sell product to Europeans, like he did mainly in the '50-'60.
And the reconstruction of Europe was a very good financial investment for USA :arrow: money


You miss the point completely. There was no reference to economic aid to Europe, but that the EU economy is very dependent on the US economy.

Quote:
And we have to remember that for the revenge of pearl Harbor USA throw 2 atomic bombs on Japan causing the death of millions of innocent civilians. :evil:


More like to prevent the loss of life which would follow an Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:43 am 
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Animals are sentient in the scientific way because they have a SENSORY SYSTEM http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/ ... system.htm

A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception.
Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... uch1.shtml
I feel like I was at kindergarten teaching you what are sense organs and how the sensory system works. :lol:

Nobody is doing philosophical debates to recognize that animals have a sensory system so they are sentient in the scientific way.

Politicians uses the scientifical definition because there are different definitions of sentient but always scientific.

Chimpanzee have a right that they can understand because they refuse to be used for experiments. They communicate this.
Anyway lots of time you have to teach to someone his right that he doesn't know to have. For exemple you can teach to the workers some rights that they don't know they already have.
Or that they can acquire.


"Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines. "
Whale uses sonar to communicate among them. And maybe with the sonar they can recognize each other. Not with the noise produced moving the surface of the water.

"We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather."
Emotions in animals are scientifically proved. It's not a human association. It's scientific. They can communicate emotions in a different way than humans. And humans in different countries express their emotions in a different way.


"EU economy is very dependent on the US economy" Nowadays no more. The new global egemony is China. USA are dependent on other countries for other things.

No the Allied were already almost totally destroyed. And they were not planning to invade Japan. And the damage caused by atomic bombs are thousand times more disastrous than the damaged caused by a navy or air army.
The Allied didn't have the atomic bomb so they were not able to damage the japan so much as USA did.
More like to prevent the loss of life which would follow an Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands.[/quote]


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:58 pm 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
Animals are sentient in the scientific way because they have a SENSORY SYSTEM http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/ ... system.htm

A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception.
Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... uch1.shtml
I feel like I was at kindergarten teaching you what are sense organs and how the sensory system works. :lol:


No, having the ability to sense positive or negative stimuli does not impart sentience. That is what the AR types have tried to change the definition to reflect, but that is not the case.

Phenomenal consciousness refers to the qualitative, subjective, experiential, or phenomenological aspects of conscious experience, sometimes identified with qualia. (In this article I also use the term “sentience” to refer to phenomenal consciousness.) To contemplate animal consciousness in this sense is to consider the possibility that, in Nagel's (1974) phrase, there might be “something it is like” to be a member of another species. Nagel disputes our capacity to know, imagine, or describe in scientific (objective) terms what it is like to be a bat, but he assumes that there is something it is like. There are those, however, who would challenge this assumption directly. Others would less directly challenge the possibility of scientifically investigating its truth. Nevertheless, there is broad commonsense agreement that phenomenal consciousness is more likely in mammals and birds than it is in invertebrates, such as insects, crustaceans or molluscs (with the possible exception of some cephalopods), while reptiles, amphibians, and fish constitute an enormous grey area for most scientists and philosophers. However, some researchers are even willing to attribute a minimal form of experiential consciousness to organisms that are phylogenetically very remote from humans and that have just a few neurons (Ginsburg & Jablonka 2007a).

Self-consciousness refers to an organism's capacity for second-order representation of the organism's own mental states. Because of its second-order character (“thought about thought”) the capacity for self consciousness is closely related to questions about “theory of mind” in nonhuman animals — whether any animals are capable of attributing mental states to others. Questions about self-consciousness and theory of mind in animals are a matter of active scientific controversy, with the most attention focused on chimpanzees and to a more limited extent on the other great apes. As attested by this controversy (and unlike questions about animal sentience) questions about self-consciousness in animals are commonly regarded as tractable by empirical means.




Quote:
Nobody is doing philosophical debates to recognize that animals have a sensory system so they are sentient in the scientific way.


If that were the scientific definition, you would have a point, but it is not so you do not.

Quote:
Politicians uses the scientifical definition because there are different definitions of sentient but always scientific.


No, they used the new political definition.

Quote:
Chimpanzee have a right that they can understand because they refuse to be used for experiments. They communicate this.


Not really. the concept of rights is not understood by any of the apes other than humans.

Quote:
Anyway lots of time you have to teach to someone his right that he doesn't know to have. For exemple you can teach to the workers some rights that they don't know they already have.
Or that they can acquire.


When you can teach a Chipmanzee about rights and they can enumerate the right they claim, we can talk again.

Quote:
"Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines. "

Whale uses sonar to communicate among them. And maybe with the sonar they can recognize each other. Not with the noise produced moving the surface of the water.


If this is cforrect the article is not truthful and thus nothing in the article can be taken as correct, including the "joy" aspect.

Quote:
"We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather."

Emotions in animals are scientifically proved. It's not a human association. It's scientific. They can communicate emotions in a different way than humans. And humans in different countries express their emotions in a different way.


No, it has to have an assumption attached since animals cannot communicate with humans to explain such feeligs.

Quote:
"EU economy is very dependent on the US economy" Nowadays no more. The new global egemony is China. USA are dependent on other countries for other things.


You still miss the point.

Quote:
No the Allied were already almost totally destroyed. And they were not planning to invade Japan.


No, you need to read your history better.

Quote:
And the damage caused by atomic bombs are thousand times more disastrous than the damaged caused by a navy or air army.


So you never heard of Dresden's bombing or the losses suffered in taking Okinawa?


Quote:
The Allied didn't have the atomic bomb so they were not able to damage the japan so much as USA did.


The US was part of the Allies.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
LetiziaPallara wrote:
Animals are sentient in the scientific way because they have a SENSORY SYSTEM http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/ ... system.htm

A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception.
Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... uch1.shtml
I feel like I was at kindergarten teaching you what are sense organs and how the sensory system works. :lol:


No, having the ability to sense positive or negative stimuli does not impart sentience. That is what the AR types have tried to change the definition to reflect, but that is not the case.
Yes, you receive the positive and negative stimuli by the sense organs.

Phenomenal consciousness refers to the qualitative, subjective, experiential, or phenomenological aspects of conscious experience, sometimes identified with qualia. (In this article I also use the term “sentience” to refer to phenomenal consciousness.) To contemplate animal consciousness in this sense is to consider the possibility that, in Nagel's (1974) phrase, there might be “something it is like” to be a member of another species. Nagel disputes our capacity to know, imagine, or describe in scientific (objective) terms what it is like to be a bat, but he assumes that there is something it is like. There are those, however, who would challenge this assumption directly. Others would less directly challenge the possibility of scientifically investigating its truth. Nevertheless, there is broad commonsense agreement that phenomenal consciousness is more likely in mammals and birds than it is in invertebrates, such as insects, crustaceans or molluscs (with the possible exception of some cephalopods), while reptiles, amphibians, and fish constitute an enormous grey area for most scientists and philosophers. However, some researchers are even willing to attribute a minimal form of experiential consciousness to organisms that are phylogenetically very remote from humans and that have just a few neurons (Ginsburg & Jablonka 2007a).

This is a philosophical definition, the subject is esthetics an arm of phylosopy that studies the perceptions. I took an exam of esthetics at university some years ago.

Self-consciousness refers to an organism's capacity for second-order representation of the organism's own mental states. Because of its second-order character (“thought about thought”) the capacity for self consciousness is closely related to questions about “theory of mind” in nonhuman animals — whether any animals are capable of attributing mental states to others. Questions about self-consciousness and theory of mind in animals are a matter of active scientific controversy, with the most attention focused on chimpanzees and to a more limited extent on the other great apes. As attested by this controversy (and unlike questions about animal sentience) questions about self-consciousness in animals are commonly regarded as tractable by empirical means.


Sometimes philosophers like discuss about obvious things.
You miss the source of your citation.

Quote:
Nobody is doing philosophical debates to recognize that animals have a sensory system so they are sentient in the scientific way.


If that were the scientific definition, you would have a point, but it is not so you do not.

Quote:
Politicians uses the scientifical definition because there are different definitions of sentient but always scientific.


No, they used the new political definition.

Quote:
Chimpanzee have a right that they can understand because they refuse to be used for experiments. They communicate this.


Not really. the concept of rights is not understood by any of the apes other than humans.
Animal understand very good their rights. They know they have the right to live and don't suffer as they do as much as they can to live and don't suffer.
If they were not self conscious they would leave themselves die or they would be passive with suffering; no they show clear signs of reactions.


Quote:
Anyway lots of time you have to teach to someone his right that he doesn't know to have. For exemple you can teach to the workers some rights that they don't know they already have.
Or that they can acquire.


When you can teach a Chipmanzee about rights and they can enumerate the right they claim, we can talk again.
I told you Chimpanzee know their rights.

Quote:
"Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines. "

Whale uses sonar to communicate among them. And maybe with the sonar they can recognize each other. Not with the noise produced moving the surface of the water.


If this is cforrect the article is not truthful and thus nothing in the article can be taken as correct, including the "joy" aspect.
The article exist to explain the joy aspect. Nothing else.

Quote:
"We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather."

Emotions in animals are scientifically proved. It's not a human association. It's scientific. They can communicate emotions in a different way than humans. And humans in different countries express their emotions in a different way.


No, it has to have an assumption attached since animals cannot communicate with humans to explain such feeligs.
Animals can communicate with humans to explains emotions. I don't know I am loosing time in debating such obvious things.

Quote:
"EU economy is very dependent on the US economy" Nowadays no more. The new global egemony is China. USA are dependent on other countries for other things.


You still miss the point. What's your point? USA are cruel is mine. USA wants money, revenge, egemony.

Quote:
No the Allied were already almost totally destroyed. And they were not planning to invade Japan.


No, you need to read your history better.
Attacking innocents is NEVER justified. The consequences of radiation damage affected generations after generations of Japanese. This was one of the most disgusting violations of human rights for which the US has been responsible.


Quote:
And the damage caused by atomic bombs are thousand times more disastrous than the damaged caused by a navy or air army.


So you never heard of Dresden's bombing or the losses suffered in taking Okinawa?
Dresden's bombing more than about 35.000 - 250.000 victims. Okinawa about 150.000 victims, mainly americans.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki 300.000 victims, and then damages in the following years.
USA used the athomic bombs to avoid that URSS invaded the Japand and founded a sovietic communist republic.
The other Allies were not interested in destroy the Japan.
Only USA and URSS were.
And because of the atomic bombs USA won, and invaded Japan. The occupation was terrible and long, until 1948.

Quote:
The Allied didn't have the atomic bomb so they were not able to damage the japan so much as USA did.


The US was part of the Allies.


Yes I would say the other Allies.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:45 am 
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LetiziaPallara wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Animals are sentient in the scientific way because they have a SENSORY SYSTEM http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/ ... system.htm

A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception.
Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... uch1.shtml
I feel like I was at kindergarten teaching you what are sense organs and how the sensory system works. :lol:


No, having the ability to sense positive or negative stimuli does not impart sentience. That is what the AR types have tried to change the definition to reflect, but that is not the case.


LetiziaPallara wrote:
Yes, you receive the positive and negative stimuli by the sense organs.


But receiving stimuli is not being senient, whivh is where the problem arises.

Quote:
Quote:
Phenomenal consciousness refers to the qualitative, subjective, experiential, or phenomenological aspects of conscious experience, sometimes identified with qualia. (In this article I also use the term “sentience” to refer to phenomenal consciousness.) To contemplate animal consciousness in this sense is to consider the possibility that, in Nagel's (1974) phrase, there might be “something it is like” to be a member of another species. Nagel disputes our capacity to know, imagine, or describe in scientific (objective) terms what it is like to be a bat, but he assumes that there is something it is like. There are those, however, who would challenge this assumption directly. Others would less directly challenge the possibility of scientifically investigating its truth. Nevertheless, there is broad commonsense agreement that phenomenal consciousness is more likely in mammals and birds than it is in invertebrates, such as insects, crustaceans or molluscs (with the possible exception of some cephalopods), while reptiles, amphibians, and fish constitute an enormous grey area for most scientists and philosophers. However, some researchers are even willing to attribute a minimal form of experiential consciousness to organisms that are phylogenetically very remote from humans and that have just a few neurons (Ginsburg & Jablonka 2007a).


This is a philosophical definition, the subject is esthetics an arm of phylosopy that studies the perceptions. I took an exam of esthetics at university some years ago.


Which would be related to whether a creature were actually sentient. Philosophical beliefs are the basis for the AR movement.

Quote:
Quote:
Self-consciousness refers to an organism's capacity for second-order representation of the organism's own mental states. Because of its second-order character (“thought about thought”) the capacity for self consciousness is closely related to questions about “theory of mind” in nonhuman animals — whether any animals are capable of attributing mental states to others. Questions about self-consciousness and theory of mind in animals are a matter of active scientific controversy, with the most attention focused on chimpanzees and to a more limited extent on the other great apes. As attested by this controversy (and unlike questions about animal sentience) questions about self-consciousness in animals are commonly regarded as tractable by empirical means.


Sometimes philosophers like discuss about obvious things.
You miss the source of your citation.


The obvious thing about the scientific controversy concerning sentience?

Quote:
Quote:
Chimpanzee have a right that they can understand because they refuse to be used for experiments. They communicate this.


Not really. the concept of rights is not understood by any of the apes other than humans.


Quote:
Animal understand very good their rights. They know they have the right to live and don't suffer as they do as much as they can to live and don't suffer.


That would be very interesting to see supported by evidence. When has an animal explained anything about an abstract conscept such as rights? I was not aware of such in depth communication being possible.

Quote:
If they were not self conscious they would leave themselves die or they would be passive with suffering; no they show clear signs of reactions.


A reaction to negative stimuli is instictual not evidence of being self conscious. That is the perversion the AR movement has tried to pawn off on the rest of us.

Quote:
Quote:
Anyway lots of time you have to teach to someone his right that he doesn't know to have. For exemple you can teach to the workers some rights that they don't know they already have.
Or that they can acquire.


When you can teach a Chipmanzee about rights and they can enumerate the right they claim, we can talk again.

Quote:
I told you Chimpanzee know their rights.


You did and I do not believe you know of which you speak. You claim something for which you have no evidence other than wishful thinking.

Quote:
"Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines. "

Whale uses sonar to communicate among them. And maybe with the sonar they can recognize each other. Not with the noise produced moving the surface of the water.


Quote:
Quote:
If this is cforrect the article is not truthful and thus nothing in the article can be taken as correct, including the "joy" aspect.

The article exist to explain the joy aspect. Nothing else.


No, the article had the information on the communication aspect so that is not correct. Since, you do not seem to believe your own article, why should anyone else? If the article is flawed it is flawed and nothing can be taken from it especially the "joy" aspect. If it is not flawed the "joy" aspect is replaced by communication and you still have no point.

Quote:
"We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather."

Emotions in animals are scientifically proved. It's not a human association. It's scientific. They can communicate emotions in a different way than humans. And humans in different countries express their emotions in a different way.


Quote:
No, it has to have an assumption attached since animals cannot communicate with humans to explain such feeligs.
Animals can communicate with humans to explains emotions.


How can animals expalin their emotions to people? What scientific paper has this breaktrhough information? You seem to confuse assumption of emotions by a person as animals communicating to that person.

Quote:
I don't know I am loosing time in debating such obvious things.


If they were so obvious there would be a lot of papers published with clear evidence of this communication of feeling and you have not provided any such references. I have not found them in my research either and must conclude they do not exist other than in your mind.

Quote:
Quote:
"EU economy is very dependent on the US economy" Nowadays no more. The new global egemony is China. USA are dependent on other countries for other things.


You still miss the point. What's your point? USA are cruel is mine. USA wants money, revenge, egemony.


No, that you do not know of which you speak concerning economics or animal research, for that matter.

Quote:
Quote:
No the Allied were already almost totally destroyed. And they were not planning to invade Japan.


No, you need to read your history better.
Attacking innocents is NEVER justified. The consequences of radiation damage affected generations after generations of Japanese. This was one of the most disgusting violations of human rights for which the US has been responsible.


Actually, the concept was the civillians are not innocents as they provide support for the war movement which was the basis for strategic bombing. Your concept of rights seems to be as flawed as some of your other concepts.

Quote:
Quote:
And the damage caused by atomic bombs are thousand times more disastrous than the damaged caused by a navy or air army.


So you never heard of Dresden's bombing or the losses suffered in taking Okinawa?
Dresden's bombing more than about 35.000 - 250.000 victims. Okinawa about 150.000 victims, mainly americans.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki 300.000 victims, and then damages in the following years.


I see your research capabilites are below what I originally expected. The casualties on Okinawa were mostly civilians, not Americans.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperie ... s-okinawa/

The battle lasted 82 days. More than 12,000 Americans were killed or missing in action -- the highest number lost in a single battle in the Pacific war. More than 70,000 Japanese soldiers and Okinawan conscripts were killed defending the island. Civilians, caught in the crossfire, bore the highest toll -- perhaps as many as 100,000 to 150,000 Okinawan men, woman, and children lost their lives during the nearly three months of fighting.

Quote:
USA used the athomic bombs to avoid that URSS invaded the Japand and founded a sovietic communist republic.


WHAT? The USSR had concentrated against Germany and would have taken months to just deploy the troops toward Japan, much less develop the ability to make amphibious invasions.

Quote:
The other Allies were not interested in destroy the Japan.
Only USA and URSS were.
And because of the atomic bombs USA won, and invaded Japan. The occupation was terrible and long, until 1948.


Terrible? The Japanese economy like that of Germany and the rest of Europe was rebuilt with American money rather than being left to rebuild on their own.

Quote:
Quote:
The Allied didn't have the atomic bomb so they were not able to damage the japan so much as USA did.


The US was part of the Allies.


Quote:
Yes I would say the other Allies.


The US Navy, Marines, and Army were the primary forces being used in the Pacific. The British had concentrated most of the Commonwealth's resources in the European theater.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer


"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein


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