EnviroLink Forum

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

It is rather hard to argue with someone whose knowledge seems to be based on youtube and wikipedia while ignoring real sources about research and testing that are readily available.... sigh....

Empathy requires insight into another's mind, 'theory of mind'. Despite a long line of experiments, even in chimpanzees, advanced theory of mind of the kind that humans have has not been demonstrated yet. Kanzi knows several hundred 'words" but took years to acquire those where some dogs can do the same in a fraction of the time.... by all means argue against testing, Letizia, but develop a solid argument based on evidence first, just like any researcher must do before animals may even be used....

Cobie, I can accept you criticize the use of Wikipedia because everyone can write there without know the facts.

I can't accept that you criticize the use of youtube as a source of documents.
What's better than a video by which you can see with your eyes???

And please, Cobie and Wayne, don't tell me animals have no empaty!

Animals are used by vivisectiors as models of human neuropsychiatric disorder:

Modeling of human neuropsychiatric disorders in animals is extremely challenging given the subjective nature of many symptoms, the lack of biomarkers and objective diagnostic tests, and the early state of the relevant neurobiology and genetics. Nonetheless, progress in understanding pathophysiology and in treatment development would benefit greatly from improved animal models. Here we review the current state of animal models of mental illness, with a focus on schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. We argue for areas of focus that might increase the likelihood of creating more useful models, at least for some disorders, and for explicit guidelines when animal models are reported.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20877280

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000076/CH.html

To create an animal model of depression, anxiety, posttraumatic stress, obsessive-compulsive disorder, alcoholism, autism, schizophrenia, anorexia, drug addiction, or spinal cord injury, a facsimile of the conditions of the disorder or disease is induced in an animal. This is accomplished by manipulation of the animal’s behavior and environment, invasive procedures to the brain and body, or genetic engineering. Animals are subjected to food, water, and sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation or overload, long-term physical restraint, social isolation, maternal separation, electric shocks, limb amputation, and brain damage and manipulation through the use of electrodes surgically implanted into the brain.
Source: http://www.neavs.org/research/cbt

"Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals, and the answer is: "Because the animals are like us".
Ask the experimenters why it is morally ok to experiments on animals , and the answer is: " Because the animals are not like us".
Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction." Charles R. Magel

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Wayne, your video show a whale killing a men for NEED to eat FOOD. Whales are used throwing hight and shaking their victims to make their meat softer. There is always a natural reason why animals make someone else suffer.

So now you are saying that animals are not sentient in the scientific way?????

Don't you know in the TFUE founding the European Union, signed by European leaders with the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007, at the article 13 you read: In the formulation and in the realization of the European Union politics in the sectors of agriculture, fishing, tranports, internal market, research and technological and special development, the European Union and the Member States fully consider the needs in subject of animal welfare as SENTIENT BEEINGS, respecting at the same time the legislative and administrative disposals and the customs of the Member States, regarding, in particular, religious rites, cultural traditions and regional heritage.

It seems in EU we are very advanced in animal rights like we are for human rights. USA with the capital punishment and with war crimes can only hide comparing with the high cultural level of EU.
USA are good only in doing wars and producing and selling arms.
You miss the heritage that Europe acquired in more than 2 millenni.

"Animal are not sentient in the scientific way".... I can say the same about you, about USA politics, everyone can say this about someone else. What's the proof of your statement?

Don't you know in the Middle Age the people thought that the black people were not sentient so can be enslaved. And in the Middle Age in European Universities academics were debating that women were without the spirit, so for them no sentient....

Really I don't understand if your vacuity come from the influence of catholic religion or what else.
I hope you understand human evolution and Charles Darwin discoveries.

and here a whale jumping for joy http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... amily.html

It seems you had always lived isolated from the world.
Have you ever watched an animal documentary in all your life?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

It seems the joke is more widespread .....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23322774

"There are plenty of other ways to make sure drugs and treatments are safely tested without using chimpanzees in experiments," Ms Conlee says. [Kathleen Conlee, Vice President, Animal Research Issues, The Humane Society of the United States]. "For example, in vitro experiments that use human tissue are one possibility, or the use of transgenic mice could be another option."

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

"Animals are not sentient in the scientific way" tell me who told you this. Or tell me how did you reach this conclusion.

"to consider their needs as sentient beings, not that they are sentient beings, which is considerably different" it's not different. It means in European Union animal welfare is important because animals are sentient beings.
"As" is my personal translation from an Italian book.

You can read the official English version online:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 199:en:PDF
"The European Union and the Member States, since animals are sentient beings, pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals, while respecting..."

About chimpanzees: http://www.releasechimps.org/laws/international-bans
"In 2007, attention was placed on revising the European Union (EU)’s laboratory animal welfare laws under Directive 86/609/EEC. On November 5, 2008, the European Commission adopted a proposal to revise the Directive that included a ban on the use of great apes (including chimpanzees) in scientific procedures except in cases of “conservation of the species itself” or in the case of “a serious pandemic affecting the human population of Europe.” (1) In 2010, the EU ban on the use of great apes in research was made official under Directive 2010/63/EU. The new Directive will not go into effect until January 2013, giving the EU’s 27 member states two years to transpose the provisions of the new Directive into national legislation."

Thank you very much for your link from BBC. You can see that after EU, and other Asian countries, USA is thinking to forbid the use of chimpanzees.
In some years we will arrive to recognize that non only chimpanzee have the right to not be used in research, but all animals have this right.

Concerning the whale jumping AFTER using the underwater sonar he found his relatives. He was jumping because he was HAPPY to have found his relatives and to have the opportunity to reach them as soon as possible.
All the news is based on the expression of joy of the whale. There will not be a news if the whale was jumping to be found.
He has the sonar to communicate with other whales. He doesn't need to jump as the other whales stay under the surface. The other whales watch and make noise to communicate UNDER the sea surface.
Jumping OUT of the sea is only a feeling expression, an emotion. And we know very well that animals express lots of emotions.
But we are more used to see a dog wagging his tail or a cat purring than a whale jumping

Regarding USA politics of economic aid to Europe that's because Europe was the only foreign market for USA.
USA was needing to sell product to Europeans, like he did mainly in the '50-'60.
And the reconstruction of Europe was a very good financial investment for USA money

And we have to remember that for the revenge of pearl Harbor USA throw 2 atomic bombs on Japan causing the death of millions of innocent civilians.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Animals are sentient in the scientific way because they have a SENSORY SYSTEM http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/ ... system.htm

A sensory system consists of sensory receptors, neural pathways, and parts of the brain involved in sensory perception.
Commonly recognized sensory systems are those for vision, hearing, somatic sensation (touch), taste and olfaction (smell). Receptive fields have been identified for the visual system, auditory system and somatosensory system, so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... uch1.shtml
I feel like I was at kindergarten teaching you what are sense organs and how the sensory system works.

Nobody is doing philosophical debates to recognize that animals have a sensory system so they are sentient in the scientific way.

Politicians uses the scientifical definition because there are different definitions of sentient but always scientific.

Chimpanzee have a right that they can understand because they refuse to be used for experiments. They communicate this.
Anyway lots of time you have to teach to someone his right that he doesn't know to have. For exemple you can teach to the workers some rights that they don't know they already have.
Or that they can acquire.


"Except for the fact of the sounds of the impact carry through the water better. That is why ultra-low frequency transmissions are used to communicate with submarines. "
Whale uses sonar to communicate among them. And maybe with the sonar they can recognize each other. Not with the noise produced moving the surface of the water.

"We know we associate animal actions as emotions. We even associate the actions of inamimate objects to emotions. I know a guy who claims his truck does not "like" cold weather."
Emotions in animals are scientifically proved. It's not a human association. It's scientific. They can communicate emotions in a different way than humans. And humans in different countries express their emotions in a different way.


"EU economy is very dependent on the US economy" Nowadays no more. The new global egemony is China. USA are dependent on other countries for other things.

No the Allied were already almost totally destroyed. And they were not planning to invade Japan. And the damage caused by atomic bombs are thousand times more disastrous than the damaged caused by a navy or air army.
The Allied didn't have the atomic bomb so they were not able to damage the japan so much as USA did.
More like to prevent the loss of life which would follow an Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands.[/quote]

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein