EnviroLink Forum

Sushi I sympathize with a lot of your perspective on industrial man but unfortunately humans are like chickens, we tend to be self-centered. In that sense we are behaving naturally. Demonstrably in our case being self-centered has major negative consequences for the planet but we also harbor at least the potential to apply rational correctives like reducing the population and relearning to live sustainably..

I do like to think that the science that allowed us to wipe out small pox was a positive development. Everything doesn't have to be doom and gloom.

Doesn't it Dingo?? http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-change
Plus all the links in my 4th tipping point thread.
Do you really think the mostly ignorant and selfish masses are going to learn to live sustainably and reduce emissions enough in time to prevent catastrophic climate change leading to a mass extinction?
Reducing emissions alone requires a major effort to change to all non-emission power, farming, shipping and the end of heavily mechanized AG, mining, distribution, and manufacturing. It has been said we can not build enough GenIV reactors in time, and they are the only safe waste using way to carry the load coal and fossil fuel power does now.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_fd
We are on the road to the population crash no matter what we do. The road to extinction is only theoretically possible to stop within a decade.
Most likely, the crash will bring surviving humanity back to medieval or stone age lives, then CAGW will finish the job for humans and most other species.
The reason for industrialization in the first place was to satisfy the needs of overpopulation. People could not live agriculturally without ruining soils, and earlier the hunter gatherers killed off mega-fauna with the technology of the Folsum Point. Humans at every stage were too ignorant to think ahead enough, and see the consequences of their actions in "seven generations", like they should have. Intelligent, strong bands of people who could live sustainably were too nice, and did not destroy all the others too dumb to live that way, and other species too close to ours which were in conflict for food and territory.
First India then China grew into monstrosities that needed industrial methods to feed all the people they allowed without long term thought. Then Europe, and finally the rest of the world. Overpopulated, then industrialized. Wars became too non-selective or negatively selective. The development of the crowd tolerance lead to worse and worse overpopulation and with it worse and worse industrialization with its pollution and depletion. Now on the path to destruction of most of the biosphere for a very, very long period.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

According to National Pollutant Release statistics, the pulp and paper industry ranks third as the largest industrial polluter in the United States and Canada, releasing well over 100 million kg of toxic material into air, land and water each year. Furthermore, the destruction of trees to produce paper products, including the paper used for printed materials such as books, has a huge negative impact on the environment by interfering with nature's atmospheric and land-based 'ecosystem' in ways that most people never think about. It has been estimated that only 33 percent of Americans own e-readers. As an author and an avid reader, I understand the 'thrill' of holding a book and reading a novel in print; but the positive environmental impact of transitioning entirely to digital cannot be ignored. As e-readers continue to go down in price, it should become easier to eliminate paper books entirely. For the sake of Mother Earth, I hope the publishing industry and the community of readers as a whole will eventually embrace a digital revolution, such that books in paper-printed format become (entirely) obsolete.

Charles J. Schneider
Author of A PORTRAIT IN TIME

_________________
Charles J. Schneider
Physician and Novelist
Author of A PORTRAIT IN TIME
http://charlesjschneider.com

"And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything." William Shakespeare

Charles J. Schneider,

It is nice to know that you are deeply concerned about environmental destruction.

In Industrial Society every activity becomes destructive, even Art, Culture and Sports.

Any activity/ work done with Industrial Machines and Products becomes highly destructive to environment.

Printing millions of books destroys environment.

Manufacturing millions of computers/ e-readers also destroys environment.

We are merely replacing one kind of destruction with another kind of destruction.

Production of computers destroys environment.....Use of computers/ e-readers requires electricity, whose production destroys more environment....And finally when computers/ e-readers are thrown away, it generates eWaste which destroys more environment.....And if they are recycled, it still destroys more environment because Recycling Industry is also a destructive industry like all other industries.
.
.

In Industrial Society thousands of industries are destroying environment every moment.

All industries are interlinked and interdependent.....Reducing environmental destruction of one industry does not make much of a difference.

If someone is being shot 100 times he cannot be saved by blocking one bullet.

If people are being stabbed repeatedly, shot repeatedly and attacked by smart bombs, depleted uranium bombs and drone attacks , they cannot be saved by stopping one kind of attack....All attacks need to be stopped.

Environment is being destroyed by Energy Generation Industry, Oil Industry , Tar Sands , Fracking , Industrial Dams , Mining Industry , Logging Industry , Manufacturing Industry, Meat Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Sports Industry, Tourism Industry and many others.
.
.

100 years of relentless Industrial Activity has destroyed the entire planet.

Millions of other species have been decimated.....Forests have been decimated.....Fish in the oceans have been decimated.....Trillions of Farm Animals have been butchered in Industrial Slaughter Houses.....Oceans have been made acidic and warmer......There are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans.....Rivers, Oceans, Land and Atmosphere have been poisoned by billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste......The entire planet is littered with billions of tonnes of Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Metal Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear waste......Millions of animals, birds and fish have died from ingesting plastic.....Billions of acres of agricultural land has been poisoned by millions of tonnes of Insecticides, Pesticides and Fertilizers.... Billions of acres of Fertile Soil has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.....Weather has become extreme, irregular and unpredictable.....Wind speed has reduced by 50% in the last 50 years.....Glaciers are melting, Arctic Ice is melting.....Thousands of tonnes of Nuclear Material and Waste will keep poisoning the planet with radioactivity for the next thousands of years.
.
.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.
.

It seems like we are stuck in a dilemma. Human beings now have the ability to manage the earth system. That means not managing it short of becoming extinct is not an option. Even leaving nature alone to regrow on its own is inherently selective and ultimately serves a human management purpose.

So the question becomes what sort of management should we pursue? Simply saying human beings screw up everything means we're screwed.

.
There are millions of species on earth.

Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.

In hunter_gatherer stage man destroyed environment only for food.

In agrarian stage man destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter.

In Industrial Society man is destroying environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.
.
.

Hunter_Gatherer society destroyed very little environment.

Agrarian Society destroyed only some forests on earth.

Industrial Society has taken down the entire planet with Industrial Machines in just 100 years.
.

The problem is agrarian society does not have built in limiting feedbacks. It naturally generates enhancing industrial developments. Present agriculture lives off fossil fuel and special technologies for manufacturing nitrogen. It needs large storage bins with electrical climate control and trains and boats for shipping. It needs containers, it needs market outlets and it needs a money system to facilitate exchange. Cabbages for a doctor exam won't do.

I'm afraid Sushi you will have to define agriculture in a more limited way.

Before the European civilization took off I believe Egypt, Mesopotamia, Northern India and China were all fairly highly developed. Forget the 18th century, what about the Great Wall and the pyramids? But to try and deal with the problem, we now have a species with the capability and the working models that naturally move us into industrial civilization. Hard to close Pandora's Box once it has been open. Maybe we can channel all those industrial tendencies into ashrams or something similar like Native American ceremonies. It doesn't seem to be that hot a ticket in either of our countries.

There is also the problem of primitives inclining to bust out. The Mongols and Vikings come to mind. The Mongols, if history serves me right, were pre-agriculture herders. They ended up setting some kind of record for conquest without much technology. Those double barralled bows and riding skills served them well.

I realize restraint will have to be a choice if we are to survive, not the least of these will be lowering the population. If anybody has a path to get us there I'm open - dope, meditation whatever.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

.
Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television, Telephone and Internet.

Billions of Pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another Harmful Waste produced by Industrial Society which has generated billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste.

Discussion cannot save environment.

Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment for millions of years through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.

Billions of pages discussion is making industrial society more and more insane, day by day, moment by moment.
.
.

Pre-Industrial society only destroyed some parts of land.

Industrial Society has destroyed the land, the oceans and the sky.

There is no way any pre-industrial society could have taken down the entire planet as has been done by Industrial Society.

.