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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Dear animal lovers and protectors,

My younger sister Stephanie and I have begun an enormous venture. We need as much help from like-minded people as we can possibly get.

Recently, we discovered for the first time that cats and dogs in parts of East Asia are routinely scalded, singed, skinned and even boiled *alive* within the meat and fur trades. We could not continue with our lives as normal knowing this. We began a joint East-West Avaaz petition for such practices to be made illegal and are currently writing to as many countries throughout the world as our knowledge of languages and the assistance of our international friends will allow.

Please, please, take a minute to read the petition: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Am ... e_Animals/

We have already had fruitful exchanges with groups in Hong Kong, Taiwan, France and Mexico.

An eminent Taiwanese university professor has publicly supported us on his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/fe5221

The more signatures we get, the more likely Avaaz will be to send out our petition to its *millions* of followers.

Please help us. Once we have 10,000 signatures, we are going to begin writing to prominent figures all over the world.

Please sign and share the petition.

Kind regards,

Elizabeth Tepper, Leeds, England (https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.french.319)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Dear animal lovers and protectors,

My younger sister Stephanie and I have begun an enormous venture. We need as much help from like-minded people as we can possibly get.

Recently, we discovered for the first time that cats and dogs in parts of East Asia are routinely scalded, singed, skinned and even boiled *alive* within the meat and fur trades. We could not continue with our lives as normal knowing this. We began a joint East-West Avaaz petition for such practices to be made illegal and are currently writing to as many countries throughout the world as our knowledge of languages and the assistance of our international friends will allow.

Please, please, take a minute to read the petition: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Am ... e_Animals/

We have already had fruitful exchanges with groups in Hong Kong, Taiwan, France and Mexico.

An eminent Taiwanese university professor has publicly supported us on his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/fe5221

The more signatures we get, the more likely Avaaz will be to send out our petition to its *millions* of followers.

Please help us. Once we have 10,000 signatures, we are going to begin writing to prominent figures all over the world.

Please sign and share the petition.

Kind regards,

Elizabeth Tepper, Leeds, England (https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.french.319)


No fan of China but this stuff is for the gullible who can be manipulated into believing Chinese people are evil & bring about racial hatred for the Chinese.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:20 am 
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Dear responder, have you read the petition? If you had, you would have seen the simplified and traditional Chinese translations provided by Chinese groups to boost the petition's effectiveness. You would perhaps have noted that this is evidence of racial cooperation rather than 'racial hatred'. You would have seen the mention of 'Chinese, South Koreans and Thais who desperately oppose the cruelty'. You would have noted that 'few' are said to inflict the cruelty. In short, you would most probably not have ended up posting such a embarrassingly ignorant message.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:05 pm 
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What good does a petition to save cats and dogs do? The Asian peoples and American Indians have eaten dog for centuries.
The real importance is to save as many species as possible by reducing emissions 90% in 9 years, and reducing population.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:59 am 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Dear animal lovers and protectors,

My younger sister Stephanie and I have begun an enormous venture. We need as much help from like-minded people as we can possibly get.

Recently, we discovered for the first time that cats and dogs in parts of East Asia are routinely scalded, singed, skinned and even boiled *alive* within the meat and fur trades. We could not continue with our lives as normal knowing this. We began a joint East-West Avaaz petition for such practices to be made illegal and are currently writing to as many countries throughout the world as our knowledge of languages and the assistance of our international friends will allow.

Please, please, take a minute to read the petition: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Am ... e_Animals/

We have already had fruitful exchanges with groups in Hong Kong, Taiwan, France and Mexico.

An eminent Taiwanese university professor has publicly supported us on his facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/fe5221

The more signatures we get, the more likely Avaaz will be to send out our petition to its *millions* of followers.

Please help us. Once we have 10,000 signatures, we are going to begin writing to prominent figures all over the world.

Please sign and share the petition.

Kind regards,

Elizabeth Tepper, Leeds, England (https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.french.319)



Elizabeth ...... I sent you a message on FB wondering what happened you the Avaaz petition?

Could you please tell us how it is that you and Stephanie became aware of these practices in China? There has been some discussion on this board about the "so-called" practice of skinning animals alive. Most don't believe it is happening. How do you know it is? Where is your information coming from? Is it true?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:47 am 
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Dear anima-friendly,

We became aware about this through another petition which was more West-oriented (it called for a boycott of china). I then did some research of my own and unearthed some articles and video footage which I have included in this message. Much of the footage is horrific, and the material is mainly in Chinese, Korean and Thai -- but it should give you a good idea. And then, our mutual friend Taiwanese Prof Andrew described (in Chinese) on his facebook wall how there is a mistaken belief in some parts of the East that if an animal suffers a painful death, the 'energy' and 'adrenaline' of the dying animal will be transferred to the the foodstuff if will then become -- this in turn will increase the diner's 'libido'. Janice Jensen at Hong Kong Animal Speak also confirmed what is happening and drew my attention to the routine skinning of cats and dogs while they are still alive. I've read in various articles that the skin is deemed to come off more easily when the animal is alive, with blood running through its veins. I didn't find any proper explanation for that, though. Don't worry: I'm not bothered by other people's comments on this forum. I don't think it was the kind of forum I thought it was. I've met much better informed people elsewhere! See you on facebook...

Kind regards,

Elizabeth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUak-6J7Gk (a video made by the Thai people -- features footage of half-dead dog being put in vat of boiling water)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8gVHK8MovA (video clearly shows dog being boiled alive in South Korea)

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjA2NTkwMjg=.html (Chinese report on 'live boiled cat')

http://www.ettoday.net/news/20120309/30559.htm (Chinese article on 'live boiled cat')

http://skdogcatcampaign.com/breeding-farms/yongin/ (South Korean dog and cat campaign article)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHB3uwB9kyA (Korean documentary on dog meat trade -- go to 12.50)

http://th.carefordogs.org/protest-again ... at-market/ (Thai care for dogs foundation article -- Thai people speak of dogs being skinned alive).

Soi dog foundation article: http://www.soidog.org/en/dogmeat/ (mentions dogs skinned alive)

Peta Article shows video of racoon dog being skinned alive on Chinese fur farm (dogs and cats also kept on fur farm): http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used ... -industry/

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=27d_1180341213 (Video of man in China peeling skin off LIVE cat)

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIG ... ts/ALL/426 (animal welfare article with witness accounts of animals skinned alive in China).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Sorry, but there is no reason to skin an animal alive for its fur because it takes more time and has a greater chance of injury to the person skinning and to the pelt itself to be practical. The video of the cat showed three people taking longer than it would have taken a single person skinning a dead animal. There is no profit in wasting time thus there is no sense in the actions portrayed.

Of course, there will be people who can be paid to do such a thing in the attempt to try to make a case or those who are just being sadistic, but not as an attempt to participate in a profitable fur trade.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Indeed, you would certainly think so. Perhaps the reality of the matter is that killing the animal first takes up time and resources which those in the industry don't want to spare. I honestly have no idea - and suspect that whatever the so-called 'justification', it occasion the same incredulity and outrage.

The video of the poor white cat does not belong to the context of the fur or meat trade. It is quite simply a case of animal torture for torture's sake - as far as anyone can tell. It has a place among the other videos and articles because the petition itself calls for the criminalisation of boiling and skinning live animals tout court. Whether in the context of the meat trade, the fur trade, or individual acts of deliberate sadism, such treatment of animals should be met with heavy legal sentences.

If you would like to view the exact text of the petition, there is an anglophone version beneath the Chinese and Korean translations. If this cruelty affects you and you want to support the people who oppose it, please sign and share the petition! Here's a link to the petition in its present state:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Am ... e_Animals/


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Indeed, you would certainly think so. Perhaps the reality of the matter is that killing the animal first takes up time and resources which those in the industry don't want to spare.


Only if it took longer to kill than it took to skin while alive, which is highly unlikely especially given the increased probability of danage to the pelt and the people doing the skinning.

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I honestly have no idea - and suspect that whatever the so-called 'justification', it occasion the same incredulity and outrage.


The popular cases of which I am aware the justification was the attempt to garner support to shut down the fur industry and to shut down commerical fishing operations.

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The video of the poor white cat does not belong to the context of the fur or meat trade. It is quite simply a case of animal torture for torture's sake - as far as anyone can tell.


That is correct.

Quote:
It has a place among the other videos and articles because the petition itself calls for the criminalisation of boiling and skinning live animals tout court. Whether in the context of the meat trade, the fur trade, or individual acts of deliberate sadism, such treatment of animals should be met with heavy legal sentences.


More probably legislation that has little to do with reality and thus much ado over nothing. However, it is a cause if one wishes to follow it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:04 am 
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I have met with much more hope, not to mention much more compassion (and better grammar) on Weibo, where scores of Chinese men and women have expressed support for the initiative. Time to take my leave of EnviroLink and stop wasting my time!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Your myopic illogic will not be missed. :!:

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“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:35 pm 
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With a PhD in philosophy from the University of Cambridge, I think that I am better qualified to comment on my own powers of logic. Dear me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
I have met with much more hope, not to mention much more compassion (and better grammar) on Weibo, where scores of Chinese men and women have expressed support for the initiative. Time to take my leave of EnviroLink and stop wasting my time!


Sorry to hear that. I am sure you would have seen more support had you been able to address the questions posed rather than expecting everything to be taken at face value. I would be supportive of the protection of animals, however this focus seemed overly narrow to me.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Wayne, the only questions posed were by Meghan. I provided you with some material created by the people of China, Korea and Thailand, and from several sources. There is little that is narrow-minded there. As for the focus being 'overly-narrow', I'm not entirely sure what that means. Laws are changed slowly, in small steps. Not having too broad a focus is wise. Having too broad a focus in counter-productive. Wayne, it is your comments that I cannot take at face-value. You do nothing to justify yourself. It comes across as , well, uneducated. I'm going to disable my message alerts now.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:45 am 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Wayne, the only questions posed were by Meghan. I provided you with some material created by the people of China, Korea and Thailand, and from several sources.


Which did little to answer the questions posed.

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There is little that is narrow-minded there.


I never said it was narrow minded I said the focus was narrow. There is a significant difference between the two. The target is animals being boiled or skinned alive, which seem to only target specific industries or markets. They are also highly questionable as being common within those industries when the processes are logically considered.

Quote:
As for the focus being 'overly-narrow', I'm not entirely sure what that means.


It means the targeted regulations are overly narrow, such as boiling or skinning animals alive as opposed to any form of death which would be similarly cruel. This gives the appearance of an attempt to impact only specific industries such as been the method used by the animal rights groups in the US, for example.

Quote:
Laws are changed slowly, in small steps. Not having too broad a focus is wise. Having too broad a focus in counter-productive.


Like say the civil rights laws in the US?

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Wayne, it is your comments that I cannot take at face-value. You do nothing to justify yourself. It comes across as , well, uneducated.


If you needed specific information on the prior discussions and associated research it would have been easy to request, but then you would have had to deal with an actual response.

Quote:
I'm going to disable my message alerts now.


It is easier to ignore questions than answer them when they are difficult.

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