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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:45 am 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Wayne, the only questions posed were by Meghan. I provided you with some material created by the people of China, Korea and Thailand, and from several sources.


Which did little to answer the questions posed.

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There is little that is narrow-minded there.


I never said it was narrow minded I said the focus was narrow. There is a significant difference between the two. The target is animals being boiled or skinned alive, which seem to only target specific industries or markets. They are also highly questionable as being common within those industries when the processes are logically considered.

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As for the focus being 'overly-narrow', I'm not entirely sure what that means.


It means the targeted regulations are overly narrow, such as boiling or skinning animals alive as opposed to any form of death which would be similarly cruel. This gives the appearance of an attempt to impact only specific industries such as been the method used by the animal rights groups in the US, for example.

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Laws are changed slowly, in small steps. Not having too broad a focus is wise. Having too broad a focus in counter-productive.


Like say the civil rights laws in the US?

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Wayne, it is your comments that I cannot take at face-value. You do nothing to justify yourself. It comes across as , well, uneducated.


If you needed specific information on the prior discussions and associated research it would have been easy to request, but then you would have had to deal with an actual response.

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I'm going to disable my message alerts now.


It is easier to ignore questions than answer them when they are difficult.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Elizabeth Tepper wrote:
Indeed, you would certainly think so. Perhaps the reality of the matter is that killing the animal first takes up time and resources which those in the industry don't want to spare. I honestly have no idea - and suspect that whatever the so-called 'justification', it occasion the same incredulity and outrage.

The video of the poor white cat does not belong to the context of the fur or meat trade. It is quite simply a case of animal torture for torture's sake - as far as anyone can tell. It has a place among the other videos and articles because the petition itself calls for the criminalisation of boiling and skinning live animals tout court. Whether in the context of the meat trade, the fur trade, or individual acts of deliberate sadism, such treatment of animals should be met with heavy legal sentences.

If you would like to view the exact text of the petition, there is an anglophone version beneath the Chinese and Korean translations. If this cruelty affects you and you want to support the people who oppose it, please sign and share the petition! Here's a link to the petition in its present state:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Am ... e_Animals/



Good Grief. A Man can kill a cat or a bull in an instant Elizabeth. Once it is dead a man is much wiser to let it get into the first stages of Rigour mortise before skinning as firmer flesh makes for less incidents of fur damage and certainly MUCH MUCH less blood which is a devaluation mark against fur processing. Warm, recently killed animals, can be skinned effectively but dying animals would be to big is a risk for the fur pelt value and certainly for the person holding the knife. I am really sorry some animal rights person is trying to take advantage of your compassionate nature. Kick him in the butt for me,would you?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:03 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
What good does a petition to save cats and dogs do? The Asian peoples and American Indians have eaten dog for centuries.
The real importance is to save as many species as possible by reducing emissions 90% in 9 years, and reducing population.


Petitions used to carry much more weight than they do now, but so did everything.

Our ancestors have eaten all kinds of things including dogs because survival was a full time job back then. Bison, elk, moose, deer, rabbits, squirrels, muskrats, horses, frogs, insects .... even mud. Although "mud/dirt" is a more recent reality for desperately hungry regions where starvation is the only other option. There is some nutrition in mud/dirt. And if we really had to, we would eat it too. But we don't have to, thank whoever. The Asian and Indigenous Americans ate their dogs when they had to.

This is a far cry from the industry of dog meat which is a much more suffering intense experience. But that is not so surprising in light of the fact that our ancestors never heaped the present day amount and degree of suffering on the animal kingdom. We have never treated animals, en masse, so poorly. Billions. We have, through the generations, become less caring for other sentient beings just as we have become more ignorant of the environment, the planet as a whole. Could it be, Johnny, that
That was their culture. We have our culture which is equally blind.

So this is part of it. Yes. But it is only a fragment.

It's a different fragment from the one you are concentrated on. But both are still just fragments. Focusing on just one issue, one concern, without seeing the totality and interconnectedness of the entire thing, is just what it is ...... a belief that by solving the problems of emissions and population, we will somehow reach an endpoint that is worthy of getting to. Many others see your point of view, and I both get it (got it awhile ago), but by focussing on this one concern of yours, you are ignoring the totality. You have named your cause. But that isn't it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:17 pm 
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You are dead wrong, the root causes are not "fragments" of problems. Taking care of the entire biosphere includes stewardship of all animals, plants, and fungi.

Desperate overpopulation threatens all edible life. It has depleted soil 75% and aquifers the same. Huge swathes of dead soil, ecosystems destroyed by human over-harvesting. Over-harvested and polluted/poisoned oceans, too, due to be totally depleted by 2035-50. AGW is killing more than realized and moving eco-systems north or up to impossible living for many species right now. Climate fluctuation is burning and flooding eco-systems now, and for more than a decade.

The big picture is overpopulation, and now even bigger is the threat of mass extinction from Thermal Maximum Fast Event (in geological terms). :mrgreen:

AF, my primary concern has always been for the children of the future. However, all the species necessary for our survival in this interconnected biosphere, are important, too. Then there are those we don't really need but are beautiful creations of God's processes, also. So many we don't see or know about, like the nematodes, fungi, and worms in healthy soil. Beneficial bacteria and other organisms, all needed.
Asian meat animals like cat, rat, and dog, are disgusting traditions of an over-crowded long term overpopulated, collapsing area of overloaded Eco-systems. They eat bugs, scorpions, snakes, everything edible, legal or not.
I would never eat our sweet playful Shepard/Eskimo girl. I don't like dog or cat over-population (also human caused), destroying natural Eco-systems with predation on the native birds and small mammals. Balance.
Humans have unbalanced numerous aspects of all our collective eco-systems, the biosphere. They were supposed to keep everything in balance but through stupidity, over-breeding, and greed, have destroyed much of their own and other species needed habitats. Out of balance tragedy......... :cry:

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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Speaking of dogs and Asia;
More Dogs Sick From Imported Pet Treats From China
EcoWatch | May 19, 2014 8:38 am | Comments

"On Friday, the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) released its latest update on the number of pet illnesses associated with imported pet treats from China. The exact cause of the illnesses is still not known.
Photo credit: Shutterstock“This ongoing health threat to American pets illustrates how trade policy is trumping regulations to protect our health.” Photo credit: Shutterstock

“Since FDA’s last update on October 22, 2013, we have received approximately 1,800 additional case reports,” said the FDA’s report. “As of May 1, 2014, we have received in total more than 4,800 complaints of illness in pets that ate chicken, duck or sweet potato jerky treats, nearly all of which are imported from China. The reports involve more than 5,600 dogs, 24 cats, three people and include more than 1,000 canine deaths.”"
http://ecowatch.com/2014/05/19/dogs-sic ... ats-china/
Ask Umbra: Are dogs born to poop wild?

By Ask Umbra
no pooping in forests Shutterstock / Mslavick

"Send your question to Umbra!

Q. I have recently been blessed with the addition of a four-legged friend to my household of one. We frequently take advantage of a local wooded trail to get a little exercise. The Admiral also takes the opportunity to do his business in the open air and far from manicured yards or sidewalks. My question is: Do I need to carry “it” out or can I safely leave his call of nature in nature to feed the Earth and help sequester carbon just like his cousins the large herbivores we call cows do?

Bob T.
Gainesville, Fla.

A. Dearest Bob,

Congrats on the new addition! On the pro side, you now have a trusted bud to fetch your slippers and alert you to threats posed by passing squirrels. Of course, you’ve already discovered the not-so-pro side of dog ownership: poop duty. We discussed how to best dispose of your pooch’s unmentionables here, but you add an interesting twist: What if The Admiral (great name, by the way) does his business not in the ‘burbs but in the woods?

Can you leave those droppings out in nature? Short answer: Yes — but only if you bury them. Time to trade those doggie-doo baggies for a nice, stout trowel.

Why? For one, aesthetics: What if every dog walker treated the trail like a personal poop highway? I’d wager most doggie deposits happen on or near the path rather than far into the wilderness, so it wouldn’t take long for a truly gross scenario to build up. Then there’s the health aspect: Canine excreta is full of pathogens that pose a risk to other humans and wildlife if left out in the open. One might argue that wild animals treat the great outdoors as their bathroom, so what’s the harm if dogs do, too? Man’s best friends exist at a much, much higher population density than wildlife, that’s why."
http://grist.org/living/ask-umbra-are-d ... aign=daily

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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