knightofalbion wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
*) Also the longest average lifespan than ever before, more people than ever before, more environmental conditions which can cause issues than ever before and somehow the only problem is eating the natural diet for our species?
1) No, you need to read more closely because a balanced diet is needed to acquire the natural requirements. In a vegatarian diet, this is also possible if dairy is included, but in a vegan diet it is impossible without the artificial supplements. Humans have thirved for centuries on this diet without artificial supplements. Even a newborn must have a diet based solely on animal products to make it to the point they can convert to a more vegetarian diet.
2) Yes, because animal husbandry can be environmentally friendly. In fact it has been for thousands of years
3) So how does the livestock industry force this increase in population again? I am not sure I see the logical connection this is supposed to make.
4) A balanced natural meat based diet, yes. A careful and balanced natural vegetarian diet including dairy products. A vegan diet, only if you add artifical supplements, which have an environmental impact and the last time I checked some of the supplements were produced using animal components.
5) Protein is not B-12 either. To use your own claim with slight modification:
6) If a vegan diet is so much better, why are there so few professional atheletes who do not follow said diet to give them the edge you claim is evident? These people's income is connected to their preformance so it would seem they should flock to a vegan diet if it gives their opponents such an advantage.
7) You mean am I biased? No, I have read numerous studies over the decades on diet, environmental impacts, and nutritional differences.
You could and if you had built up a sufficient reserve of B-12, for example, you would do ok for a while. You see there are no sources of B-12 in a vegan diet so without the initial meat based diet you cannot have a healthly life span.
9) I would agree on this as few eat a properly balanced diet.
10) Especially the ones from animal sources, since the benefit of using manure for fertilizer and lax streilization of food allows the animal products to be introduced into the diet without being that obvious.
11) They are when they eat processed food now, yes. The fresh organic foods, no. Thus the natural unsupplemented diet, which is the new trend is not.
12)
And that whole survival thing which is tied to the natural diet. Perhaps we should manufacture complete food in a bar and see how that works for the einvironment too.
*) I rather think its the quality of life that is the important issue, not the length of life. How many people with the indignity of dementia do you know?.... And people living longer is down to central heating/better housing & medicines. Though with over-population 'this' is also linked, see below.
You claim causation while ignoring all other aspects of change. That was the point and you had no credible response to refute your short coming.
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1) "In theory, one could live solely on supplements and not on natural foods" - You.
You couldn't
Why not? Just saying "no" without some evidence to support your claim is as weak as making the above claim without considering the other factors equally.
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and nor could you live solely on meat.
Many of the native Inuit came close. They ate a diet very high in animal fat.
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You can on plant food.
No, you cannot. You cannot get the B-12, for example, from any plant source.
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Indeed without plant food there would be no human or animal life on earth
.
Because the bottom of the food chain contains animals which are designed to be herbavores, while we are designed to be omnivores and thus require some animal products to remain healthy.
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Have you ever tried a vegan diet to be in a position to make any judgement?
Supplementation. Food you eat is fortified. Animal feed is fortified. Over half all Americans take a supplement. It's the world we live in.
And if we stop eating natural plant food and start eating only artificial supplements, that would be the world in which we live as well. It would not change the fact that for a natural diet humans need animal products.
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You can get all nutrients from a plant diet.
No, you cannot. I have pointed out the problems with a natural plant based diet as well as a modern plant based diet.
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2) WAYNE!!!!!!!!! There weren't over 7 BILLION people on the planet back then. Heading to 10 BILLION by the middle of the century.
Which means a plant based diet will not be able to feed these people because of the limitations of arabel land. The conversion of land suitable only for grazing to plant production is not possible. Thus, the use of that land to produce food makes it possbile to feed more of this population. This still never addressed how the meat industry was supposed to be responsible for the population increase, which was my intitial question.
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3) See the above!
More people = less land, more food needed.
Livestock production = waste of precious dwindling resources, more waste, more greenhouse gas, more deforestation.
Misunderstanding of the situation is clear, but the reason for the misunderstanding seems to be intentional. Livestock production can ADD to the resources if you just look at the whole picture.
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4) Totally wrong.
If that were the case you could point to the specifics on what was wrong. Just trying to wave away facts does not do anything but make your position appear to be intent on ingoring facts.
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5) Your point? You can get B-12 from vegan sources. Vegan B-12 supplements.
As I pointed out the "vegan" supplements the last time I did an in depth check were a lie. They used bacteria to manufacture the B-12, but the bacteria was raised in a solution containing milk. A "vegan" source unsupportable without the animal products is not really vegan.
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A recent general population study found around 40% had 'low levels', 'near deficiency' or 'outright deficiency' of B-12.
And this is supposed to show what exactly? What of the vegan and vegetarian populations?
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6) The number is growing all the time.
"In fact my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet. I've found that a person does not need protein from meat to be a successful athlete" - Carl Lewis
Not growing very quickly if it were such a clear advantage. It seems your outlook on the advantage is somewhat biased when compared to the actual atheletes whose income is tied to their performance.
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7) You need to have walked the walk before you can talk the talk.
So you have been an athlete eating a meat based diet?
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8) Over 400 million life long vegetarians in India, for example, who have never eaten meat yet doing fine.
And when they move to nations with sanitized food they do not do as well. When the trace animal products in the soil are removed the B-12 goes with it.
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Vegan B-12 supplements are just that vegan, derived from yeasts or spirulina.
Yeasts may have B-12 added, but they are not a source of B-12.
According to the vegan site that tracks such research the spirulina claim is also false:
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant#spiruSpirulina
An Indian research group published an article in 2010 examining the vitamin B12 content of spirulina (Spirulina platensis). They believed that they found 35 - 38 µg of methylcobalamin per 100 g of dry mass (40).
Table 5 shows the B12 analogue content (µg/30 g) of various spirulina batches from earlier reports:
Table 5. B12 Analogue Content (µg/30 g) of Spirulina
Netherlands4 USA13 Japan14
Assay IF L. leich. IF L. leich. L. leich. IF PC
Spirulina 14.5 67 36.7 193.1 73 2.5 0.44
Spirulina 6 35.3 38 1.9 0.32
Spirulina 1.67 8.7 44 5.2 0.88
IF - Intrinsic factor Assay
PC - Paper Chromotography Assay
The wide range of B12 analogues from one measurement method to another indicates that spirulina has a wide variety of different analogues, many of which are inactive. Some may interfere with B12 activity in humans.
In the one study published in medical journals testing spirulina, B12 activity actually decreased in people fed a combination of spirulina and nori (Dagnelie et al., 1991, Netherlands).
In the Autumn 2005 issue of their newsletter The Vegan (p. 30) the UK Vegan Society reported on a trial they performed using chlorella and spirulina to treat elevated MMA levels. Three people with abnormal MMA levels were given spirulina and their MMA levels remained abnormal.
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A recent study discovered B-12 in white button mushrooms.
There was no clear determination of active B-12 according to the vegan site:
A 2012 study from the Watanabe group (35) found what they thought was active vitamin B12 in the following mushrooms (per 100 g of dry weight):
2.9 - 3.9 µg in black trumpet (Craterellus cornucopioides)
1.3 - 2.1 µg in golden chanterelle (Cantharellus cibarius)
1.3 µg in parasol (Macrolepiota procera)
.3 - .4 µg in porcini (Boletus spp.)
.2 µg in oyster (Pleurotus ostreatus)
.1 µg in black morels (Morchella conica)
The authors noted that 100 g of dry weight was the equivalent of about 1 kg of fresh mushrooms. They said that a moderate intake of black trumpet or golden chanterelle "may contribute slightly to the prevention of severe B12 deficiency in vegetarians." They did not know why the mushrooms contained B12 and also did not test the mushrooms in humans to determine their ability to lower MMA levels.
Table 14. B12 in Mushrooms
Button Cup Flat
Most
Cap 1005 567 161
Flesh 233 83 84
Stalk 17 255 465
Peel 217 1015 354
Total (ng / 400 g) 1472 1920 1064
ng / Cupa 257.60 336.00 186.20
mcg / Cup 0.26 0.34 0.19
Cups to meet RDA 9.32 7.14 12.89
Least
Cap 11 8 17
Flesh 4 7 4
Stalk 11 7 12
Peel 36 20 68
Total (ng / 400 g) 62 42 101
ng / Cupa 10.85 7.35 17.68
mcg / Cup 0.01 0.01 0.02
Cups to meet RDA 221.20 326.53 135.79
aAssume 70 g per Cup
In 2009, a paper was published looking at the B12 analogue content of mushrooms in Australia (31). The authors used chromatography and mass spectrometry to determine whether the B12 was an active form, and they believed that it was.
Table 14 shows the B12 analogue content of the batches of each mushroom containing the most B12 and the batches containing the least.
Assuming that the B12 is active analogue, it would take anywhere from 7 to 326 cups of mushrooms to meet the RDA.
As for the source of the B12, the authors were not sure, but they said:
"The high concentration of vitamin B12 in peel suggests that it was not synthesized within the mushrooms but was either absorbed directly from the compost or synthesized by bacteria on the mushroom surface. The latter is more likely because mushrooms have no root system to take up the vitamin in the compost as is the case with the uptake of vitamins by root plants from the soil containing fertilizers."
A 2005 study from Italy found significant amounts of vitamin B12 analogue in mushrooms (33). 250 g of P. nebrodensis contained 4.8 µg of vitamin B12. They used an immunoenzymatic assay. From the paper, it appears that the soil did not have organic waste of any kind. It is not clear if the B12 analogue was active.
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9) But Americans are eating more red meat and dairy than ever before!
Do you ever read the term "balanced diet" or do you just ignore it as a standard?
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So you counter with the evidence that farming is damaging the soil? How does that relate to what I said about especially the situations where animal manure is not used? Given that vegetable farming is doing this damage to the soil, it seems that using your logic we should stop eating vegetables, right?
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How does this relate to what I said exactly?
And that whole survival thing which is tied to the natural diet. Perhaps we should manufacture complete food in a bar and see how that works for the einvironment too.Just to point out Paul's error, I have been to a slaughterhouse. I have slaughtered hogs, chickens, and cattle for my own consumption and I still eat a dieat containing meat. There are quite a few others with similar experiences.
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