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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:01 am 
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Sorry Sushi but my guess is your argument is with evolution. Somewhere between 50 to 100 thousand years ago we made a leap in abstract thought. We got some dim idea of the leverage principle and how to symbolize it and apply it, carrying it into myriad forms. We also created sophisticated communication leading into control forms that allowed people to be organized into slave gangs, ex. military.

Slavery + the leverage principle = modern society.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:07 pm 
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I think it is the ability to make fire that started the ball rolling to eventually overpopulate and put out far more HGHGs than the world could absorb, and use resources far faster than they are regenerated.
Organization into groups had been taking place before that, with adult males fighting predators and other groups who attack. Selfishness and greed had already developed. I don't think greed is innate to our species, at least, I hope it isn't.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:59 pm 
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Using captured fire is one stage. Making fire by friction is a way more advanced stage. Basic tribal warfare or organized hunting is one stage. Organizing people into slave gangs commonly with specialized functions and very hierarchical is another and as Mumford suggests is the basis for the modern corporation and state. The second stage in each case would probably only appear with relatively modern man due to his major leap in handling abstractions.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:17 pm 
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We can use our time and energy for three kinds of activities........Physical Work, Subjective Work (Experience) and Mental Work.

For millions of years on earth environment did not get destroyed (or limited amount got destroyed) because activity was limited to physical work or subjective experience.........Millions of animal species did physical work........Man did physical work in hunter_gatherer stage and agrarian stage.......A very small percentage of population that did not do physical work spent its time and energy on subjective experience - religion, spirituality, yoga, meditation, pranayama and the arts..........(Religion might have led to hatred, violence and wars but it did not destroy environment).

Largescale destruction of environment began when man started using his time and energy for mental work - science, technology, engineering, physics, chemistry, mathematics, business, finance, economics.........This led to making of industrial machines, industrialization and production (and selling) of thousands of consumer goods and services.

As long as we limited our activity to physical work or subjective experience we destroyed very little environment.

When we switched over to mental work / desk jobs, we started producing (and selling) consumer goods and ended up destroying the planet in just about 100 years.
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When a building is on fire we rush to douse the fire immediately.........We do not waste time finding out who constructed the building, what led to construction of building.........Industrial activity has destroyed environment........We need to stop the excess industrial activity immediately instead of wasting time on what led to industrialization.

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Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial man has destroyed exponential extra environment.

Production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.

The collective work of human society must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Millions of other species only get food from earth.

(Give free food to the urban population but stop urban work.........A fraction of world population is already producing food for entire population).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:41 pm 
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Sushi, you left out medical advances. Big omission. Glad to know we can't get smallpox and I imagine if you think about you are too.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:31 am 
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Dingo wrote:
Sushi, you left out medical advances. Big omission. Glad to know we can't get smallpox and I imagine if you think about you are too.


Dingo,,,,,We can live with diseases........We cannot live if environment gets destroyed.......Modern medicine has existed for only about hundred years........Life has existed on earth for millions of years.......Millions of species lived on earth for millions of years without modern medicine.......All of us are alive today because thousands of our ancestors survived for thousands of years without modern medicine.

It is true that many people died from diseases before industrialization but it is also true that many people survived without modern medicine.......There was never a time when the entire human population perished from diseases.

Modern medicine has cured diseases caused by virus and bacteria but it has brought new lifestyle diseases into this world........Cancer, Obesity, Diabetes, Heart Disease, Stroke, Asthma, Lung Disease, Kidney and Liver Failures, Multiple Organ Failures.

We cannot live if environment gets destroyed........Millions of other species have already been decimated by industrial activity.........Man is next on the list.......Industry is killing agriculture.......Industrial activity has changed global weather making it extreme, irregular and unpredictable........Agriculture requires regularity of weather.......It requires heat, cold and rain at the right time and in the right amounts.......If industrial activity is not stopped it will lead to collapse of agriculture in the coming years.

Industrial activity is melting glaciers that give birth to rivers....... If industrial activity is not stopped most rivers will vanish from earth.......Man has already depleted most of the underground water using diesel and electric pumps.

No food......No water......End of man on earth.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:10 am 
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While I am agreeing with Sushi, there is also a part of me that wonders - what do we know??

Do we really know what effects the earth went through, and likely of it's own natural accord?

Yes, it is unlikely that man had anywhere near as big an impact on the earth, but who is to say that it isn't natural for the earth to go through extremes, and have times where certain life cannot be sustained in certain parts.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:05 am 
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One of the tragedies of human beings is that we are so collectively adaptable. We're like rats on steroids. We are probably capable of wiping out most species and living principally on algae and a few farmed animals and fish that feed on them.

A green goo planet is hardly something to look forward to but whose to say we can't continue to live in the midst of our algae farms.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:38 pm 
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A bleak future indeed, Dingo. What do you think are some ways we can do more? We've got documentaries, science, blah blah blah. It's going to take a collective to save the planet, and I don't think anyone wants to use Borg technology. :)
Sushi - actually, a couple time humanity has come very close to becoming extinct due to disease.
HF

ETA - Where's Wayne gotten to? I find myself missing his scathing remarks. :eh:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:54 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
A bleak future indeed, Dingo. What do you think are some ways we can do more? We've got documentaries, science, blah blah blah. It's going to take a collective to save the planet, and I don't think anyone wants to use Borg technology. :)
Sushi - actually, a couple time humanity has come very close to becoming extinct due to disease.
HF

ETA - Where's Wayne gotten to? I find myself missing his scathing remarks. :eh:


We are here. We are the Borg. :twisted: :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:17 pm 
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LOL, that's more like it! :shock: *runs for the Hills* BTW there are a LOT of great Borg episodes on Star Trek Voyager.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:16 am 
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HeritageFarm wrote:
LOL, that's more like it! :shock: *runs for the Hills* BTW there are a LOT of great Borg episodes on Star Trek Voyager.


I was more an original or Next Gen trekkie. Deep Space Nine was Babylon Five light and Voyager irked me to no end about the physics.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:32 pm 
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The "industrial society" that Sushi wants to nearly stop, WILL stop as civilization and the ecology collapse.
Sure, it will go on as long as possible, but with economic collapse, the industries quit when there is no profit.
This will be after the tipping point of the massive Siberian Shelf methane deposits into self release(<8 yrs.).
The crash(15 to 30 yrs.) will be before the extinction events from exponential heat rise(~2043 to 5K stable @ 200*C).
Industry will then be dead, and so will, at least, most species. Millions of years to recovery, like previous methane turnover episodes, or no recovery, ever.
They learned to play with fire.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:11 am 
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Millions of other species destroyed environment only for food.

Industrial man has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.

Industrial man has destroyed exponential extra environment.

Industrial man has destroyed the entire planet in just about hundred years.

All the destructive work in this world happens when society does not produce food..........In agrarian society more than 99% of population was producing food.........In industrial society 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% is doing destructive work.

Man was created on earth to do physical work.......For one million years in hunter_gatherer society and for 10,000 years in agrarian society, both adults and children did physical work........Mental work/ Desk jobs for adults and schools/ colleges for children have come into existence only in the last 100 years.

For millions of years adult animals searched for food, their offspring learned to search for food.

For 1 million years in hunter-gatherer society, adult humans searched for food, their children learned to search for food.

For 10,000 years in agrarian society, adult humans produced food, their children learned to produce food.

In the last 100 years in urban industrial society, adult humans have been producing and selling thousands of consumer goods in industries and corporations, their children have been going to schools and universities where they learn to produce and sell consumer goods in future.

Urban jobs and professions have destroyed the planet.
The entire urban population of industrial society is criminal.
The crime goes unchecked because 50% of population is now urban.
The crime goes unchecked because urban population is running the system.
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Millions of other species have already been decimated by industrial activity..........More than 99% of collapse has already happened.........Only human collapse is yet to happen.......And people are still not alarmed.......Human collapse is going to come with lightning speed now.
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Man has spent more than 99.9% of his time on earth in non-industrial societies.

Man lived in hunter_gatherer society for one million years........Man lived in agrarian society for 10,000 years........Man has lived in industrial society for just about 100 years during which he has destroyed the entire planet.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.
If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.
That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.
.
Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.
Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:46 pm 
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I could get the modern state if human beings were wiser. Unfortunately a narrow good is commonly purchased at the expense of a greater evil. We need to find a place where we can live sustainably. Just for starters that means a lot less people. All I hear back is the rate of increase is decreasing like we will level out in 2100 at maybe 10 billion. 7 billion is already too many. Folks get fetishistic about the joys of children and then neglect or exploit them outrageously. If you love children you want them to grow up with enough love and resources well into the future. You don't use them as an excuse to denude the planet. "Gosh I would love to do right but I have a family to take care of so don't shut down my coal mining job." I think Gandhi had the beginning of some insight when he advocated for more democratic village level technologies over the more "advanced" colonial technologies of the British. One has to be careful though. Modern power systems were to a large degree built on Guttenberg's moveable type. I don't see that going away. Any solution is going to involve a foot in both worlds. We just have to be wise about it and get that there are too many of us.

Rational arguments don't work. Perhaps repetitive slogans you can stick on a bumper sticker is the way to go. Like this:

MORE TREES, LESS PEOPLE!

At least is starts a useful argument.


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