EnviroLink Forum

There are pigs pushing for water. Why is that?

Might it be because they are thirsty?

And how uncomfortable is it to travel for long distances without food or water in heat waves?

Even Canadian ones? Yes, even Canada gets heat waves.

There were also pigs NOT pushing. Why is that?



Might be they were curious about what was being pushed toward them too.



These were not travelling in a heat wave though. You can assume a lot if you wish but the facts of THIS case do not support it.



If you call 80 F a heat wave, I suppose. The temperature records for the location are there for anyone to see and there was no heat wave at anytime during the month.

The Canadian laws allow pigs to be transported to up to 36 hours without food or water. In this regard, Canada is lagging. Can you imagine, in 80 degree temperatures, or 0 degree temperatures? Of course 80 degrees is a heat wave when you are travelling such long distances/hours without food or water. No wonder those animals were in need of water. So basic.

No hit from your logic can cure this or justify it.

Dazzle me with your brilliance Wayne, but no amount of justification can justify this.
These animals are forced to endure ridiculously inhumane practices as a means of human employment. Cheap.

And the conversation is a bit boring because "temperature records" and the interpretation of them in regard to the actual experience of these animals is nit-picking and a distraction from the actual fact of what these animals actually experience on their way to slaughter.

I believe you are arguing that these animals are actually quite comfortable on their way. They are not. Some of them arrive quite sick and some already dead.

Well, when you can say that 80 degrees F is a heat wave, you have gone off into the ether and left reality behind.

When I was growing up, I remember that 78* was hot. We didn't huddle together in those days of 78* sun temps. We sought shade. 80* is hot. Call it 80*or call it a heat wave, or call it simply hot. 80* is 80* by all names.

Nowadays, I am used to much hotter temps, but I still don't choose to travel in either temp, and I am not terribly interested in even shaking hands with another human when both of us are in such climes for such long distances and so huddled together.



Of course not, you have already decided that it is unacceptable and would probably do so no matter the changes in the legislation.

You have also decided. We both have. Are we aiming to change each others minds? Yes and no. Discussion is all and good.



I know there can be no justification for you because you already made up your mind and closed it tight.

My mind is open & I would hope yours is too. It's the only way.



The ACTUALLY experienced temperatures of no more than 80 degrees F because there were no temperatures for that location higher for the entire month.

Wow! Seems you missed my point. Whether it was 75 degrees, or eighty ....... or 2. By Canadian standards, which are lagging, we are seeing dead animals upon arrival (DOA), from heat exhaustion or from cold. It's happening. It's a fact.



Really? How many of these particular animals arrived dead?

Oh right. I guess I got carried away there. You are asking about the particular as I am describing the probability in a system of both mass slaughter and mass transportation. (bacon/sausage for breakfast, ham or salami for lunch, chicken, steak or pork chops for dinner!). Cultural conditioning keeps the conveyor belts running. It's an industry ya know ... a cog in the machinery of an economic system we can't blame God for.

"Of the 700 million farm animals killed each year in Canada, nearly every one will undergo transport at least once in its life. According to reports by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), three million animals die during transport every year. The suffering these animals endure is unfathomable. According to the Humane Society International Canada, the conditions of these transport trucks offer poor ventilation, and expose animals to outdoor temperature extremes. Often animals cannot lie down during long journeys, and can overheat. Overcrowding on trucks is another factor, which leads to some animals getting trampled and killed. The journey also subjects animals to decrease in airflow, as well as high ammonia levels, and poor air quality."

If you have that data you know which date it was they were shipped and we can get the exact maximum temperature for the trip

You use the word 'shipped'. You ask about the maximum temp. 80* isn't enough under these conditions for animals to be "shipped"? What is it for general cargo?

through "town." you say? The animals only had to cross "town" you say? Oh well then ... Let's not talk about the highways, cities with their traffic and noise and confusion, traffic lights stalling movement, long delays, etc.

Perhaps there were none dead but merely "quite sick" as you said. That number would also be of interest for this shipment for the same reasons.

The Canadian laws allow pigs to be transported to up to 36 hours without food or water. In this regard, Canada is lagging. Can you imagine, in 80 degree temperatures, or 0 degree temperatures? Of course 80 degrees is a heat wave when you are travelling such long distances/hours without food or water. No wonder those animals were in need of water. So basic.

When I was growing up, I remember that 78* was hot. We didn't huddle together in those days of 78* sun temps. We sought shade. 80* is hot. Call it 80*or call it a heat wave, or call it simply hot. 80* is 80* by all accounts.

Nowadays, I am used to much hotter temps, but I still don't choose to travel in either temp, and I am not terribly interested in even shaking hands with another human when both of us are in such climes for such long distances and so huddled together.

You have also decided on your position. We both have. Are we aiming to change each others minds? Yes and no. There's not much that either of us can do as individuals anyway, but discussion is always good. The wisdom is always in the question. There can be no conclusion.

Dazzle me with your brilliance Wayne, but no amount of justification can justify this.
These animals are forced to endure ridiculously inhumane practices as a means of human employment. Cheap.

My mind is open & I would hope yours is too. It's the only way to tango.

And the conversation is a bit boring because "temperature records" and the interpretation of them in regard to the actual experience of these animals is nit-picking and a distraction from the actual fact of what these animals actually experience on their way to slaughter.

Wow! Seems you missed my point. Whether it was 75 degrees, or eighty ....... or 2. By Canadian standards, which are lagging, we are seeing dead animals upon arrival (DOA), from heat exhaustion or from cold. It's happening. It's a fact.

I believe you are arguing that these animals are actually quite comfortable on their way. They are not. Some of them arrive quite sick and some already dead.

Oh right. I guess I got carried away there. You are asking about the particular as I am describing the probability in a system of both mass slaughter and mass transportation. (bacon/sausage for breakfast, ham or salami for lunch, chicken, steak or pork chops for dinner!). Cultural conditioning keeps the conveyor belts running. It's an industry ya know ... a cog in the machinery of an economic system we can't blame God for.

"Of the 700 million farm animals killed each year in Canada, nearly every one will undergo transport at least once in its life. According to reports by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), three million animals die during transport every year. The suffering these animals endure is unfathomable. According to the Humane Society International Canada, the conditions of these transport trucks offer poor ventilation, and expose animals to outdoor temperature extremes. Often animals cannot lie down during long journeys, and can overheat. Overcrowding on trucks is another factor, which leads to some animals getting trampled and killed. The journey also subjects animals to decrease in airflow, as well as high ammonia levels, and poor air quality."

You use the word 'shipped'. You ask about the maximum temp. 80* isn't enough under these conditions for animals to be "shipped"? What is it for general cargo?

through "town." you say? The animals only had to cross "town" you say? Oh well then ... Let's not talk about the highways, cities with their traffic and noise and confusion, traffic lights stalling movement, long delays, etc.

Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), "three million animals die during transport every year".
And we didn't agree that the trip was only through "town" since it included a highway or two, plus a lot of other confusion.
So what about this particular "shipment" that was given water?

Perhaps you would prefer this interpretation: The pigs were naturally curious about the offering. Pigs are curious. They weren't thirsty at all. They took the water thinking it was food of any kind because pigs like food of any kind. It turned out to be only water which the pigs guzzled because they were simply curious about food. They weren't thirsty at all, and their guzzling of the water only indicated a natural curiosity of food. We don't know how long this particular 'shipment' had been travelling, but it was ONLY the outer edges of this particular 'shipment', the ones who happen to have been situated by the windows, who were thirsty. The ones who were not near the window were obviously not thirsty.

When I was growing up, I remember that 78* was hot. We didn't huddle together in those days of 78* sun temps. We sought shade. 80* is hot. Call it 80*or call it a heat wave, or call it simply hot. 80* is 80* by all accounts.

Nowadays, I am used to much hotter temps, but I still don't choose to travel in either temp, and I am not terribly interested in even shaking hands with another human when both of us are in such climes for such long distances and so huddled together.

You have also decided on your position.

We both have. Are we aiming to change each others minds? Yes and no. There's not much that either of us can do as individuals anyway, but discussion is always good. The wisdom is always in the question. There can be no conclusion.

My mind is open & I would hope yours is too. It's the only way to tango.

Wow! Seems you missed my point. Whether it was 75 degrees, or eighty ....... or 2. By Canadian standards, which are lagging, we are seeing dead animals upon arrival (DOA), from heat exhaustion or from cold. It's happening. It's a fact.

When you use something as evidence to support your position which does not do so, it makes you and your position seem less than honest. Since this video really does not support your claims above, why not provide evidence which does?




Source? Evidence? Certainly not this video.



What is it you are trying to say? That 80 degrees is too hot for shipment of pigs? There are generally no temperature limits for general cargo, which is why they use box containers instead of ventilated trailers.



That was where the video you provided was taken, in town. That is where the problem was claimed to be documented, but was not.





Would that be NONE dead and NONE "quite sick" according to your evidence?

I also meant to give you this to check out ..... http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-l ... -1.2820563

"Thousands of farm animals are transported across Canada every week. But the conditions they experience are regulated by rules that are decades old, and according to many, inhumane.

Canada's regulations governing the transportation of farmed animals date back to 1975. They currently allow for cattle to be in transit for 52 hours without access to food or water, while the maximum for pigs and chickens is 36 hours."

You still refer to these animals as "shipment". Interesting.

Also interesting that you have a "best" system quoted.

Good going if you continue to justify this practice. I get it.

Our ancestors needed it so now we do this.

Is this your argument?

They are being shipped are they not. Troops are shipped overseas too. Your point is?

That neither pig nor human should be perceived as objects/shipment. The way we treat the environment is the way we treat each other is the way we treat animals is the way we treat each other and the environment, etc. Completely interrelated. How dare we "ship" humans? Is life so cheap?



You were the one claiming the Canadian requirements were not as good as the European and this shipment met the European temperature requirements, which is all we can know about the shipment from the video information and outside data.



You are trying to vilify it based on your personal emotions, I am pointing out the errors in your presentation.

You point out the status quo. (Is that emotional? If so, you are guilty of emotionalism). In that, you are in error. I challenge the status quo. The status quo is in need of an overhaul, yet you defend it. Nothing to see here folks, just another concerned individual.



Actually I believe our ancestors raised their own so there was not the need for transport except for sea voyages and colonization.

Our ancestors hunted and gathered, with most of the food source obtained through gathering. Our later ancestors discovered agriculture which included the raising of livestock. That's how it was, so no issue with it. No issue with history. But our ancestors did NOT do what we are doing now with animals and would probably roll over in their graves if they could possibly imagine what was to become of animals in the current situation. It's rather dismal, (understatement).



No, my argument is that your evidence fails to support your argument.

That neither pig nor human should be perceived as objects/shipment. The way we treat the environment is the way we treat each other is the way we treat animals is the way we treat each other and the environment, etc. Completely interrelated. How dare we "ship" humans? Is life so cheap?

You point out the status quo. (Is that emotional? If so, you are guilty of emotionalism). In that, you are in error. I challenge the status quo. The status quo is in need of an overhaul, yet you defend it. Nothing to see here folks, just another concerned individual.

Our ancestors hunted and gathered, with most of the food source obtained through gathering. Our later ancestors discovered agriculture which included the raising of livestock. That's how it was, so no issue with it. No issue with history. But our ancestors did NOT do what we are doing now with animals and would probably roll over in their graves if they could possibly imagine what was to become of animals in the current situation. It's rather dismal, (understatement).

Weak in the face of evidence. Oh yes, you want to know how these "particular" pigs enjoyed their "particular" ride.
Because bacon. Apparently it's all the rage these days. Very hip.

So you want to know if any of this "shipment" died en route? Maybe not, but maybe so. It's not unusual for animals to die while being transported. What of the others who don't die? Might they suffer? Might they be thirsty or hungry? Could it be possible that this journey is quite awful? This is the status quo that you uphold. Because tasty. See it?

You have to stretch the definition (in Order to send your offspring there). of the term to find such an opposition, but that is what some do.

Only "some"? Too bad. Do you really regard our sons as fodder? Are they nothing more than cattle? Will you allow then to sign up for the military?

You are trying to vilify it based on your personal emotions, I am pointing out the errors in your presentation.

Our ancestors hunted and gathered, with most of the food source obtained through gathering. Our later ancestors discovered agriculture which included the raising of livestock. That's how it was, so no issue with it. No issue with history. But our ancestors did NOT do what we are doing now with animals and would probably roll over in their graves if they could possibly imagine what was to become of animals in the current situation. It's rather dismal, (understatement).

Oh yes, you want to know how these "particular" pigs enjoyed their "particular" ride.
Because bacon. Apparently it's all the rage these days. Very hip.

You have to stretch the definition (in Order to send your offspring there). of the term to find such an opposition, but that is what some do.

I AM SAYING saying that EVERYTHING must change! And that is the point exactly!