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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:40 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Is there a reason you are just now quoting your own posts from prior pages?[d
Not exactly. No.Why do you ask?


Just wondering if there was a reason or if it were just spam. Spam will be deleted per the instructions of the board management.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:40 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Is there a reason you are just now quoting your own posts from prior pages?

Not exactly. No.Why do you ask?


Just wondering if there was a reason or if it were just spam. Spam will be deleted per the instructions of the board management.


Spam should be deleted. Of course.

But quoting my own prior posts is not spam, which is, I suppose, why they have not been deleted. Quoting my own (and your) prior quotes is the way I am conversing with you. Not exactly chronological, I know, but linear is not the only way. Sometimes it is constructive to circle back and back again, and then go forward, and then circle back (with the hope than we can again go forward).

For instance, will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented. It seems to say that if there is transport there must be suffering, which is an assumption unsupported by anything other than emotions."

Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'? While it it is legal, it is undocumented? HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE UNDOCUMENTED ..... if it is legal? And your response, "if there is transport there must be suffering"?

Noooo. Transportation MUST happen, but 52 hours without food, water, or rest? Would an assumption about those animals welfare legalities/allowances be too emotional for you?

How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?

Might one not be acting and thinking and behaving in a very rational context to object to such laws? Who do you presume you are talking to?

You are conversing with a logical human being, and logical human beings make allowances for emotions since the intellect and emotions are usually (hopefully) well connected. I have stated the facts of Canadian transport laws. I may circle back again to statement you have previously made on this thread. And if/when I do, it will not be spam.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:54 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Is there a reason you are just now quoting your own posts from prior pages?


Not exactly. No.Why do you ask?


Just wondering if there was a reason or if it were just spam. Spam will be deleted per the instructions of the board management.


animal-friendly wrote:
Spam should be deleted. Of course.

But quoting my own prior posts is not spam, which is, I suppose, why they have not been deleted.


No, it was due to their being discussed. At this point one has been deleted and the other may still be.

Quote:
Quoting my own (and your) prior quotes is the way I am conversing with you.


But is says nothing new and is frankly a little confusing.

Quote:
Not exactly chronological, I know, but linear is not the only way. Sometimes it is constructive to circle back and back again, and then go forward, and then circle back (with the hope than we can again go forward).


A better way would be to indicate which portion of the prior discussion was of interest, not just post the same thing twice.

Quote:
For instance, will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented. It seems to say that if there is transport there must be suffering, which is an assumption unsupported by anything other than emotions."


Quote:
Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'?


Yes, as you have not specified what the suffering is nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering on the animals as a group. Do you believe keeping them in a barn in freezing weather causes suffering after some unspecified time?

Quote:
While it it is legal, it is undocumented?


The suffering you claim, yes. The transport time is not applicable until there can be shown what suffering occurs and when. It falls back to your apparent assumption that transport equals suffering because you believe you would be uncomfortable in such a situation, which is an emotional belief.

Quote:
HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BE UNDOCUMENTED ..... if it is legal?


It there were sufficient documentation of actual suffering it probably would not be legal.

Quote:
And your response, "if there is transport there must be suffering"?


Yes, as you seem to intermix the two as you did above with the documentation questions.

Quote:
Noooo. Transportation MUST happen, but 52 hours without food, water, or rest? Would an assumption about those animals welfare legalities/allowances be too emotional for you?


Assumptions are poor points to use in changing established regulations. One can always assume anything but such decisions require facts and evidence.

Quote:
How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?


Given the rest of the facts, yes, it is. What is the "magic number" and why? 52 hours causes the assumption of suffering so go to 26 hours and cut the assumed suffering in half. Then you can assume that is too much and cut it in half again and again because the goal seems to be that transport is what you want banned because it also would cut the numbers of animals raised for food.

Quote:
Might one not be acting and thinking and behaving in a very rational context to object to such laws?


Not given the evidence presented.

Quote:
Who do you presume you are talking to?


Some one who has not given any evidence to support a proposal that hogs are suffering in a video or in the general transport. Who you are or are not does not matter, but what you have to show as evidence does.

Quote:
You are conversing with a logical human being, and logical human beings make allowances for emotions since the intellect and emotions are usually (hopefully) well connected.


That could be a point of debate as well.

Quote:
I have stated the facts of Canadian transport laws.


Yes, and no evidence as to why they should be changed, which would be the really important thing to do unless they do not need to be changed.

Quote:
I may circle back again to statement you have previously made on this thread. And if/when I do, it will not be spam.


That will remain to be seen since it will depend on how it is done. I would not suggest merely posting a previous post again especially more than once. There was some question the first time, but I doubt if a second would have any question.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:53 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Is there a reason you are just now quoting your own posts from prior pages?


Not exactly. No.Why do you ask?


Just wondering if there was a reason or if it were just spam. Spam will be deleted per the instructions of the board management.


animal-friendly wrote:
Spam should be deleted. Of course.

But quoting my own prior posts is not spam, which is, I suppose, why they have not been deleted.


No, it was due to their being discussed. At this point one has been deleted and the other may still be.

Delete away. Sorry I am not following your rules and format. Not my main concern. Here is my concern:

Let me be simple then. Thousands of animals in transport. Most in stress. Evidence already given. You still waiting for it.

Quote:
For instance, I will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented."

Implicit.

[q
Quote:
uote]Yes, as you have not specified what the suffering is nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering.


It's legal. What documentation is required when it's part of the matrix? Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and rest. How can you say the suffering is not specified?

What documentation do you require? Canadian law? Just gave it to you.
Let's start fresh.

Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?

If I repeat the question, will you delete it?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:41 am 
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Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'?

Quote:
Yes, as you have not specified what the suffering is ...


Implicit as it is? Evidence? A petrie dish or what would you like? I have been specific. You keep saying I have not. Weird.


"nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering on the animals as a group.

Individuals? Or must they be a group? A group in a petrie dish, or just one? How would they all fit in a lab?

Quote:
Do you believe keeping them in a barn in freezing weather causes suffering after some unspecified time
?

Why do you ask? Keeping them in a barn without food or water? Or just keeping them in a barn? Unspecified time? Why unspecified?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:07 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:


Delete away. Sorry I am not following your rules and format. Not my main concern. Here is my concern:

Let me be simple then. Thousands of animals in transport. Most in stress. Evidence already given. You still waiting for it.



No, you have NOT given evidence of "most in stress" which is why you have no made any points. You claim they are in transit for X amount of time without evidence of the effect being stress other than your assumption that you would not like it.

Quote:
Quote:
For instance, I will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented."


"greatest amount of suffering" is relative in this case, which is why I stated that is was not specified. If the previous suffering was ).000001% and the "long journeys", which is also relative, represented 0.00001% of the animals suffering the statement would be just as true as if the suffering was 1000 fold greater. No way to know which is the correct percentage.


Quote:
Yes, as you have not specified what the suffering is nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering.


It's legal. What documentation is required when it's part of the matrix?


That is actually happens, which is called documentation. Document the effect on the animal for the different lengths of the transport and show what percentage of the current transport is of that length.

Quote:
Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and rest. How can you say the suffering is not specified?


They CAN be transported, there is nothing presented to show how many are transported for any specific length of time or what the effects on the animals are at that level of transport. Transport cannot just be assumed to be suffering.

Quote:
What documentation do you require?


I have told you REPEATEDLY and I just repeated it again.

Quote:
Canadian law? Just gave it to you.
Let's start fresh.


Really?

Quote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so. Now it is your turn to show the data that would cause the law to be changed. If it is just that you assume there is suffering there is no reason to repeat the discussion as it will be circular again.

Quote:
If I repeat the question, will you delete it?


No, but if you copy the complete post it may be.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:18 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'?


Repeated posting of a previous post is spam.

Quote:
Quote:
Yes, as you have not specified what the suffering is ...


Implicit as it is? Evidence? A petrie dish or what would you like?


What animals, you have jumped from hogs to cows to chickens, what the specific suffering is for the length of transport, documentation of the percentage of suffering at the levels currently used and at what you propose the levels are to be in the future.


Quote:
I have been specific. You keep saying I have not. Weird.



No, you have not.


Quote:
"nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering on the animals as a group.

Individuals?


Individual examples are called anecdotal ans do not provide evidence of the system.

Quote:
Or must they be a group?


Percentages are determined in that manner and it will be percentages upon which any decision should be made.

Quote:
A group in a petrie dish, or just one? How would they all fit in a lab?


You don't. You make broad assumptions and expect people to believe you.... and when they do not you ask about "petrie dishes"


Quote:
Quote:
Do you believe keeping them in a barn in freezing weather causes suffering after some unspecified time
?

Why do you ask?


Because that relates to what you have been saying.

Quote:
Keeping them in a barn without food or water?


With food and water for the present.

Quote:
Unspecified time? Why unspecified?



You have not given what the "acceptable" time limit for transport is so it is unspecified.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:01 am 
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"A better way would be to indicate which portion of the prior discussion was of interest, not just post the same thing twice."

Quote:
For instance, will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented. It seems to say that if there is transport there must be suffering, which is an assumption unsupported by anything other than emotions."


Quote:
Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'?


specified what the suffering is.
Yes, as you have not

Haven't I? I thought I said something about 52 hours without food, water and rest.

nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering on the animals as a group.

Have i not said that animals can be transported for both 36 and 52 hours?

I thought I said something about 52 hours without food, water and rest.

Quote:
You are conversing with a logical human being, and logical human beings make allowances for emotions since the intellect and emotions are usually (hopefully) well connected.


That could be a point of debate as well.

You may well debate it, but animals can still be in transport for 52 hours, whether you like me or not.
Quote:
I have stated the facts of Canadian transport laws.
You may either like or dislike me for stating them.

Yes, and no evidence as to why they should be changed, which would be the really important thing to do unless they do not need to be changed.

I'm sorry. Are you actually saying that an animal can be transported for 52 or 36 hours without any form of sustenance because it is "legal"?

No evidence as to why an animal, a being who has preferences and is able to mourn the loss of it's offspring, should be considered? Because bacon?

Quote:
I may circle back again to statement you have previously made on this thread. And if/when I do, it will not be spam.


That will remain to be seen since it will depend on how it is done.

This is how it is done.
Emphasis.
Reiteration.

I would not suggest merely posting a previous post again especially more than once. There was some question the first time, but I doubt if a second would have any question.[/quote]

But I will do it again if it seems necessary. I may repeat what you have said again. There are a few reasons why. But again, even if i dare being accused of spam, "Are you actually saying that an animal can be transported for 52 or 36 hours without any form of sustenance because it is "legal"? "


Last edited by animal-friendly on Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:24 am 
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Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:48 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
"A better way would be to indicate which portion of the prior discussion was of interest, not just post the same thing twice."

Quote:
For instance, will reiterate this particular exchange ..... "The greatest animal suffering observed in the study occurred on long journeys - especially in freezing weather. Canadian cows can be in transit for 52 hours without food, water and a rest break. In Europe, the standard is 12 hours.

And your reply was: "Suffering which again is not specified nor documented. It seems to say that if there is transport there must be suffering, which is an assumption unsupported by anything other than emotions."


Quote:
Is it really spam or is it simply circling back on a part of the total conversation that has not been adequately addressed? Is 52 hours in freezing weather 'unspecified suffering'?


specified what the suffering is.
Yes, as you have not

Haven't I? I thought I said something about 52 hours without food, water and rest.


So no food, water, or rest is the suffering you dislike. What exactly is the point it becomes suffering? Are there physical indicators that appear after X amount of time? What does the frezzing weather have to do with these causes of suffering?

Quote:
nor have you provided any documentation of said suffering on the animals as a group.

Have i not said that animals can be transported for both 36 and 52 hours?


You have but you have not shown how one or the other causes suffering. I would understand discomfort at these points, but you claimed suffering. I am still waiting for some documentation of said suffering. As I said you seem to equate transport with suffering but there is nothing to support your belief presented to convince anyone else to follow that belief.

Quote:
I thought I said something about 52 hours without food, water and rest.


How is that suffering? Does it cause injury that can be readily identified? What is the manifestation of this suffering.

Quote:
Quote:
You are conversing with a logical human being, and logical human beings make allowances for emotions since the intellect and emotions are usually (hopefully) well connected.


That could be a point of debate as well.

You may well debate it, but animals can still be in transport for 52 hours, whether you like me or not.


I believe that applies more to you than I because I am still trying to get to the suffering part.

Quote:
Quote:
I have stated the facts of Canadian transport laws.
You may either like or dislike me for stating them.

Yes, and no evidence as to why they should be changed, which would be the really important thing to do unless they do not need to be changed.

I'm sorry. Are you actually saying that an animal can be transported for 52 or 36 hours without any form of sustenance because it is "legal"?


No I am saying that it is legal and should remain so unless there is some evidence to support it being changed.

Quote:
No evidence as to why an animal, a being who has preferences and is able to mourn the loss of it's offspring, should be considered? Because bacon?


Considered for what? You are giving a circular argument at best and at worst no argument at all.

Quote:
Quote:
I may circle back again to statement you have previously made on this thread. And if/when I do, it will not be spam.


That will remain to be seen since it will depend on how it is done.

This is how it is done.
Emphasis.
Reiteration.

I would not suggest merely posting a previous post again especially more than once. There was some question the first time, but I doubt if a second would have any question.


But I will do it again if it seems necessary. I may repeat what you have said again. [/quote]

If it is done as the last time it WILL be deleted.

Quote:
There are a few reasons why. But again, even if i dare being accused of spam, "Are you actually saying that an animal can be transported for 52 or 36 hours without any form of sustenance because it is "legal"? "


It is up to you to present an valid argument to CHANGE that law if you want it changed. If not it is legal and apparently working as well as other transport laws based upon the percentages indicated.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:52 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.


Yes, and if you wish to change the law you have to be able to explain how such a change is justified based on real scientific evidence not feelings and beliefs. There are many components that go into such a change and all stakeholders should have the right to question the date or to provide data to support their positions. This means the industries will have a say as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:13 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.


Yes, and if you wish to change the law you have to be able to explain how such a change is justified based on real scientific evidence not feelings and beliefs. There are many components that go into such a change and all stakeholders should have the right to question the date or to provide data to support their positions. This means the industries will have a say as well.


The industries will do what they do because they are making money. I am not as interested in changing the law as I am in changing public/individual perception of what is needed to live a life without such misery, exploitation and violence. We are causing undue suffering to animals because of industry spin. Industry requires money, jobs, etc. It's part of the economy to insist that we must eat protein in the form of animals. So we do this.

How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?

What is the "magic number" and why? 52 hours causes the assumption of suffering so go to 26 hours and cut the assumed suffering in half.

Yes. That would be MUCH better, at least by half. Why not? Europe is doing 12.

... the goal seems to be that transport is what you want banned because it also would cut the numbers of animals raised for food.

Of course I don't want transport banned. I never, ever said so! I don't choose to eat meat which doesn't mean my parents don't like their steak. This is an animal welfare issue, not an abolitionist one. And clearly, this is an issue to be addressed.

Even my friends and family would like better conditions while they barbecue.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:52 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.


Yes, and if you wish to change the law you have to be able to explain how such a change is justified based on real scientific evidence not feelings and beliefs. There are many components that go into such a change and all stakeholders should have the right to question the date or to provide data to support their positions. This means the industries will have a say as well.


The industries will do what they do because they are making money. I am not as interested in changing the law as I am in changing public/individual perception of what is needed to live a life without such misery, exploitation and violence. We are causing undue suffering to animals because of industry spin. Industry requires money, jobs, etc. It's part of the economy to insist that we must eat protein in the form of animals. So we do this.

How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?


"Might be" is the problem. There "might be" a lot of things, whcih is why evidence makes a huge difference.

Quote:
What is the "magic number" and why? 52 hours causes the assumption of suffering so go to 26 hours and cut the assumed suffering in half.


And increase the costs for the industries because you would feel better in your assumption?

Quote:
Yes. That would be MUCH better, at least by half. Why not? Europe is doing 12.


Europe is much more populated and the countries are much smaller, thus there are significant differences in distances and resources available. Also zero dividied by two is still zero.

Quote:
... the goal seems to be that transport is what you want banned because it also would cut the numbers of animals raised for food.

Of course I don't want transport banned. I never, ever said so!


But we can assume that can we not? If you want to cut it in half why not cut it in half again? Or again?


Quote:
I don't choose to eat meat which doesn't mean my parents don't like their steak. This is an animal welfare issue, not an abolitionist one. And clearly, this is an issue to be addressed.


Animal welfare usually deals with evidence but abolition usually deals with perceptions and assumptions.

Quote:
Even my friends and family would like better conditions while they barbecue.


And how much more would they pay for that barbecue as a result? Would they continue to barbecue as often or would economics have an impact?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:15 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.

Quote:
beliefs.Yes, and if you wish to change the law you have to be able to explain how such a change is justified based on real scientific evidence not feelings and


How convenient. Meat is to taste. We will continue to allow for taste. And as an economic factor.

Quote:
There are many components that go into such a change and all stakeholders should have the right to question the date or to provide data to support their positions. This means the industries will have a say as well.


Of course they will. They always have. Economics have a voice. Stakeholders etc.

Quote:
The industries will do what they do because they are making money. I am not as interested in changing the law as I am in changing public/individual perception of what is needed to live a life without such misery, exploitation and violence. We are causing undue suffering to animals because of industry spin. Industry requires money, jobs, etc. It's part of the economy to insist that we must eat protein in the form of animals. So we do this.


How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?


Quote:
"Might be" is the problem. There "might be" a lot of things, whcih is why evidence makes a huge difference.


No. It'a there. Whose looking for any sort of evidence when 52 hours is legal anyway?

Quote:
What is the "magic number" and why? 52 hours causes the assumption of suffering so go to 26 hours and cut the assumed suffering in half.
And increase the costs for the industries because you would feel better in your assumption?


Ohhh no. Increase the costs for the industries? I would feel better, and so would the general public, if they actually knew what what going on. Most don't know the actual state of the industry.

Europe is much more populated and the countries are much smaller, thus there are significant differences in distances and resources available. Also zero dividied by two is still zero.

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... the goal seems to be that transport is what you want banned because it also would cut the numbers of animals raised for food.

Of course I don't want transport banned. I never, ever said so!


But we can assume that can we not? If you want to cut it in half why not cut it in half again? Or again?

Yeah. Sure. Of course.

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I don't choose to eat meat which doesn't mean my parents don't like their steak. This is an animal welfare issue, not an abolitionist one. And clearly, this is an issue to be addressed.


Animal welfare usually deals with evidence
Exactly. Laws.

but abolition usually deals with perceptions and assumptions.
And?

Quote:
Even my friends and family would like better conditions while they barbecue.


And how much more would they pay for that barbecue as a result? Would they continue to barbecue as often or would economics have an impact?[/quote]

Economics would have an impact and they would probably barbecue less but their lives would not suffer as a result. Would yours?

Even my carnivorous friends and family would be willing to pay more for the privilege of eating animal protein when they know they could be eating protein from other sources. It's not hard. It's just habit.

Apparently, smoking is hard to quit too.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:23 pm 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Tell me again how to justify an animal being transported without food, water, or rest for 52 hours?


It is legal to do so.


Exactly.

Quote:
beliefs.Yes, and if you wish to change the law you have to be able to explain how such a change is justified based on real scientific evidence not feelings and


How convenient. Meat is to taste. We will continue to allow for taste. And as an economic factor.


Actually we require animal products for a natural diet, it would therefore not be a "taste" any more or less than another food source.


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The industries will do what they do because they are making money. I am not as interested in changing the law as I am in changing public/individual perception of what is needed to live a life without such misery, exploitation and violence. We are causing undue suffering to animals because of industry spin. Industry requires money, jobs, etc. It's part of the economy to insist that we must eat protein in the form of animals. So we do this.


How presumptuous, really, is it, to 'kinda-sorta' presume that there might be suffering for an animal to be legally allowed to be transported in freezing weather without food, water or rest for 52 hours?


animal-friendly wrote:
Quote:
"Might be" is the problem. There "might be" a lot of things, which is why evidence makes a huge difference.


No. It'a there. Whose looking for any sort of evidence when 52 hours is legal anyway?


It seem none are looking for evidence and none are trying to change the law, but they are just rambling on about it.

Quote:
Quote:
What is the "magic number" and why? 52 hours causes the assumption of suffering so go to 26 hours and cut the assumed suffering in half.
And increase the costs for the industries because you would feel better in your assumption?


Ohhh no. Increase the costs for the industries? I would feel better, and so would the general public, if they actually knew what what going on. Most don't know the actual state of the industry.


But you have no idea what is going on in the industry or you would have evidence instead of assumptions.



Quote:
Quote:
Animal welfare usually deals with evidence

Exactly. Laws.


No, there were no laws in the beginning but there was animal welfare.

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Quote:
but abolition usually deals with perceptions and assumptions.

And?


You seem to be dealing with perceptions and assumptions and not evidence.

Quote:
Quote:
Even my friends and family would like better conditions while they barbecue.


And how much more would they pay for that barbecue as a result? Would they continue to barbecue as often or would economics have an impact?


Economics would have an impact and they would probably barbecue less but their lives would not suffer as a result. Would yours?[/quote]

Some would but you do not care about such facts.

Quote:
Even my carnivorous friends and family would be willing to pay more for the privilege of eating animal protein when they know they could be eating protein from other sources. It's not hard. It's just habit.


People are Omnivores which means we can eat more than just meat or vegetables but naturally need both.

Quote:
Apparently, smoking is hard to quit too.


And what is it you are smoking then?

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