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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:50 am 
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RF wrote

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Indeed the word comes from the Latin root niger through the
French usage of the 14th century meaning 'to blacken,' referring to reputation, (syn. to sully) and 'to darken' referring to ambiguating that which is clear.


Quote:


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Now granted, the scholar in this link doesn't accept the racial implication of the word.


Neither do I; principally because race (as distinct from culture or citizenship) was not an issue when the usage was established.

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However, I have seen it argued that using terms such as "blacken" as synonymous with "to sully" is inherently racial, and even descends from racism.


I agree that it represents a dichotomy that white people might naturally adopt to represent self and other; good and bad etc. and may be said to be based on racial identity. I seem to recall reading, however, that this dichotomy is more human than race based and is not actually confined to white races. In that case it probably has more to do with the human preference for Day, visibility and relative safety; over Night, invisibility and relative insecurity.

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Therefore, the term "denigrate" is a racial term


"Therefore", should introduce the conclusion of an argument. You have provided no argument. This is simply a re-statement of your first proposition above viz: "to blacken/sully" is, "inherently racial".

That, "to blacken", here is a metaphoric reference to the phenomena of darkening or loss of light (e.g. eclipse of the Moon / setting of the Sun) and all that that implies, and has nothing to do with the colour of anyone's skin or hair, should be obvious from the fact that it makes perfect sense to speak of denigrating a black person viz: darkening that person's character.

My argument is that this word refers to character, which has no colour, is a [i]phenomenological/i] metaphor and has nothing whatever to do with racial hostility.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:02 am 
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RF wrote

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Donnie Mac Leod wrote:
BTW ,thanks for the apology.

Hey! It was MY apology.


It was indeed RF :lol:

Quote:
Thanks for the apology, Sandra.


You are welcome RF - least I could do :)

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It appears you caught your error while I was pointing it out in my post.


Apparently so, it's the time warp, never ceases to amaze me: something to do with the Sun I think :lol:

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So that part can be disregarded


Or could have been had I seen this post before the other - in which case I wouldn't have had to apologize twice :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:31 am 
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Hi NT

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Sorry to put you through all this, if I did.


Thank's NT but it's O.K. You've brought an important, long standing, issue to a head and I hope it will now be resolved in a way that is satisfactory to all.

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If I may say in my broken unsophisticated English, I do admire your powerful insightful intellectual ability to see and present the truth.


You may say it in any English you care to adopt NT. :lol: That is praise indeed (and contra my usual detached and objective posture I'm not even listening to any remarks to the contrary) :P BTW NT, your English is really very good and not at all unsophisticated.

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I think you missed an entire thread "Out Of Order" in this Feed Back section posted few days ago and mysteriously disappearing.


Yes I did.

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If possible could you please find from administration what happened to this thread. I would like to have a copy of this thread for personal use.

Yes, having never seen it, I have asked Wayne or Josh to respond to you on this point.

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Also; a lot of fighting went on at "To: AR/AL/AW: Good by" thread , which you it seems have also missed, during your short absence.


I think I may have seen it since - there have been some deletions :twisted: but really NT, my capacity for absorbing this sort of fighting is limited (as is my time). I may have just, "tuned out", unconsciously of course. :lol:

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I am not going to participate at this board much longer as I said. Little time I have for this sort of thing I will spend at:
http://www.animalsuffering.com/forum/ There one doesn't have to prove that Earth is round and that animals should be treated with respect over and over every day.


I'm sorry you are going NT but I quite understand your decision. Constantly being required to prove the obvious and having every second sentence torn apart and, "nit-picked", or distorted is intensely frustrating and time consuming. To say nothing of remarks to the effect that animals should be abused as and when it suits humans.

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On the contrary of what is been said here, there, I have noticed people disagree a lot about many issues, but about meaningful and intelligent issues regarding AR, AL, AW and treat each other with respect and dignity.


Which is what one was looking for originally and is still hoping for on this Board too.

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Here it seems most of "bandwidth" has been utilized to derail such arguments. In my opinion, not a very healthy place.


I entirely agree with you NT, as do some other people who were making valuable contributions, and who rarely post now; LSBF for instance and VeePee.

Quote:
Perhaps You can try to make it better


I have been trying - I think the Forum is worth saving, but moderating is definitely my last throw of the dice.

NT, I saw your next post and will check my private box.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:42 pm 
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RF wrote:
Indeed the word comes from the Latin root niger through the
French usage of the 14th century meaning 'to blacken,' referring to reputation,
(syn. to sully) and 'to darken' referring to ambiguating that which is clear.


http://unauthorised.org/anthropology/an ... /0525.html

Now granted, the scholar in this link doesn't accept the racial implication of the word. However, I have seen it argued that using terms such as "blacken" as synonymous with "to sully" is inherently racial, and even descends from racism. Therefore, the term "denigrate" is a racial term.

RF- You are doing this to be antagonistic... your smallcox posting is another example. One more of these and I will ban you. I will not discuss this further as I have no time for immature bs like this.

-josh


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:35 pm 
You do what you want, Josh. Apparently my being polite isn't enough, and I really fail to see how I can avoid being antagonistic. (And nowhere did I see that a self-depracating joke was verboten. Course...it was hard to comment on without calling attention to the underlying intent of the original comment.)

But like I said, I don't see how I can avoid being antagonistic. I don't see how anyone here can when interacting with their opposition.

Main Entry: an·tag·o·nism
Pronunciation: an-'ta-g&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 a : opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle <the antagonism of democracy to dictatorship> b : actively expressed opposition or hostility <antagonism between factions>


But if you want to ban me, I can accept that. After all, it isn't much different than those hunt sabbers being deliberately antagonistic to hunters...though they don't seem to accept the consequences as well. You seemed to gloss over that...in fact, seemed to be saying that antagonism was nothing but smart politics...but as I earlier predicted....you sing a different tune when the situation is reversed.

(BTW...if my argument was merely "immature BS", you think someone could have addressed it and disposed of it. I do understand how difficult that is when an argument follows your own rationale and reason, but still...)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:46 pm 
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RF wrote:
(BTW...if my argument was merely "immature BS", you think someone could have addressed it and disposed of it. I do understand how difficult that is when an argument follows your own rationale and reason, but still...)

You could have posted a complaint about the original comment by xveganx without then making fun of the fact that she made a complaint about another user's disability. It was ill-advised and not done out of a sincere concern for the state of things on this forum... it was done to "go after" another user by whining to me.

I did dispose of the thread you started, as well as others posted by other users who were doing the same thing.

-josh


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:17 am 
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RF

I, "disposed of, your argument on, "nigere", fairly well, I thought. Certainly presented a rational explanation of it's (non-racist) use.

Josh is obviously right about the rest. Your post jeering at Phantomuk's dyslexia was a disgrace. IMO, if you had a proper sense of the immaturity and enormity of what you did you would apologise to Phantomuk - and mean it. You can't expect a crude self-deprecating joke (which certainly didn't raise the general tone of the exchange) to wash the slate clean.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:46 am 
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I, "disposed of, your argument on, "nigere", fairly well, I thought. Certainly presented a rational explanation of it's (non-racist) use.


Well that's your story, and since I am apparently not allowed to pursue my point, I suppose your story can stand.

Quote:
Your post jeering at Phantomuk's dyslexia was a disgrace. IMO, if you had a proper sense of the immaturity and enormity of what you did you would apologise to Phantomuk - and mean it.


Enormity? That's a bit dramatic. All I did was laugh at the joke.

Quote:
You can't expect a crude self-deprecating joke (which certainly didn't raise the general tone of the exchange) to wash the slate clean.


That wasn't the intent, and I don't really understand why you would make that assumption.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:51 am 
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You could have posted a complaint about the original comment by xveganx without then making fun of the fact that she made a complaint about another user's disability. It was ill-advised and not done out of a sincere concern for the state of things on this forum... it was done to "go after" another user by whining to me.


I certainly don't see that the tone of my post was "whining". Nor was I going after xveganx. Was just noting a bit of irony, is all. Where I was going was wherever that irony applied.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:24 am 
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RF wrote:
Quote:
I, "disposed of, your argument on, "nigere", fairly well, I thought. Certainly presented a rational explanation of it's (non-racist) use.


Well that's your story, and since I am apparently not allowed to pursue my point, I suppose your story can stand.


I'm sure Josh didn't mean you were not permitted to carry on a discussion of the semantics. But let it go. It's not relevant to the discussion really.

Quote:
Your post jeering at Phantomuk's dyslexia was a disgrace. IMO, if you had a proper sense of the immaturity and enormity of what you did you would apologise to Phantomuk - and mean it.


Quote:
Enormity? That's a bit dramatic. All I did was laugh at the joke.


That's what I mean by a poor sense of the, "enormity", (size) of the offence. It wasn't a joke it was an instance of laughing at / jeering / poking fun at / a person's disability. Pretty crass joke.

Quote:
You can't expect a crude self-deprecating joke (which certainly didn't raise the general tone of the exchange) to wash the slate clean.


Quote:
That wasn't the intent, and I don't really understand why you would make that assumption.


Not an assumption; an inference from something you said later to Josh. I thought you were saying that you had also made a joke against your self - as if that made it alright.

I still think you (and the originator of the, "joke") owe it to yourselves and everyone else to apologize.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:43 am 
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Could someone please clarify - is the use of

:wink:

an indication that the author is making a joke?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:01 am 
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I thought you were saying that you had also made a joke against your self - as if that made it alright.


No...all I did was say that I wasn't aware such jokes were against the rules. And noted that the joke was probably very difficult to respond to.

Quote:
I still think you (and the originator of the, "joke") owe it to yourselves and everyone else to apologize.


No...I don't owe an apology to anyone else. You might be right that I owe it to myself, though. But then, I have lots of debts I have incurred to myself that are unsettled.

However, I can't get past this niggling (OMG!) little perception that I have seen no such persistent suggestions for apologies given to some who have engaged in even more enormous insult than some giggling over what I still perceive as a funny rejoinder.

Now I will admit that I sometimes pay little attention to official rules except to see how close to the line I can go. But I pay close attention to the rules that others show they personally play by. And that joke in question seems entirely within Phanto's rules.

Don't get me wrong. I sorta like the kid, despite our polarity on certain issues. But a little appreciation for the irony of his own situation contrasted with his own words wouldn't hurt him any.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:51 am 
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RF"

Quote:
I thought you were saying that you had also made a joke against your self - as if that made it alright.


Quote:
No...all I did was say that I wasn't aware such jokes were against the rules. And noted that the joke was probably very difficult to respond to.


I'm not sure they are. We are still evolving the rules. I'd say your joke word, being coarse but clever was borderline. People vary on this question, obviously, but it is a public forum and I suspect we'll opt for a conservative position on coarse language in the end to avoid giving offence.

Quote:
I still think you (and the originator of the, "joke") owe it to yourselves and everyone else to apologize.


Quote:
No...I don't owe an apology to anyone else. You might be right that I owe it to myself, though. But then, I have lots of debts I have incurred to myself that are unsettled.


Not a good idea really, IMO.

Quote:
However, I can't get past this niggling (OMG!) little perception that I have seen no such persistent suggestions for apologies given to some who have engaged in even more enormous insult than some giggling over what I still perceive as a funny rejoinder.


Your final rejoinder to XveganX was clever and I grant it was funny too, despite the coarseness of the language; and even justified in view of XveganX's comment to you. That wasn't the issue. My suggestion of apology relates to your treatment of Phantomuk - not XveganX.

As to precedents I think you'll find quite a few apologies, from both sides, if you go back through the posts. However, in all the cases I can remember the people reprimanded for giving offence offered their apology without being asked. Still you are right; equally offensive or perhaps worse things have gone by (or been deleted) without apology offered or sought. Perhaps you just walked in at the wrong moment. Perhaps I think you are worth the effort. I'm not sure. Anyway, it's your decision. If you don't think it appropriate, obviously you won't do it.

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Now I will admit that I sometimes pay little attention to official rules except to see how close to the line I can go.


What a surprise :lol:

Quote:
But I pay close attention to the rules that others show they personally play by. And that joke in question seems entirely within Phanto's rules.


Possibly but it isn't the point. In the first place, while Phantomuk has used some extremely strong and offensive language, particularly, in response to ridicule re his occasional dyslexic formulations, he has apologized to Josh and has re-formed. In the second place it isn't only Pantomuk who is reading your posts.

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Don't get me wrong. I sorta like the kid, despite our polarity on certain issues.


It isn't about who you like.

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But a little appreciation for the irony of his own situation contrasted with his own words wouldn't hurt him any.


Let me see now. Publicly ridiculing Phantomuk's dyslexia is supposed to help him appreciate the, "irony of his situation". Yes? :? No, sorry! Can't grasp it. Would you care to elaborate?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:16 pm 
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Sandra John wrote:
Let me see now. Publicly ridiculing Phantomuk's dyslexia is supposed to help him appreciate the, "irony of his situation". Yes? :? No, sorry! Can't grasp it. Would you care to elaborate?


Perhaps pantomuk should have been upfront about his 'condition' a little sooner. :) Afterall, the first mention is in the thread in question, and he himself treated it as a joke. :P I guess that would make him the 'originator' that owes everyone an apology? :D

Or maybe you're being played by both sides, and that's the real humor of the situation? :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:06 pm 
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Red wrote:
Sandra John wrote:
Let me see now. Publicly ridiculing Phantomuk's dyslexia is supposed to help him appreciate the, "irony of his situation". Yes? :? No, sorry! Can't grasp it. Would you care to elaborate?


Perhaps pantomuk should have been upfront about his 'condition' a little sooner. :) Afterall, the first mention is in the thread in question, and he himself treated it as a joke. :P I guess that would make him the 'originator' that owes everyone an apology? :D

Or maybe you're being played by both sides, and that's the real humor of the situation? :wink:


It is not the first time I have mentioned it and no I did not find it a joke I did not know how to respond without getting banned. Let just say we would have been fighting if in the same room and that was the extent of my feelings at the time.


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