EnviroLink Forum

Cindy McCain was once a rodeo queen. None of us
is the same as we were yesterday, let alone 20 or 30 years ago. God
give Mrs McCain the grace to work for the alleviation of the suffering
of Arizona's people and animals.

Her husband was bombing women in a lightbulb factory when
he was shot down. God give him the grace to ask forgiveness of
the Vietnamese, 4 million of whom were killed by the actions
of capitalist warprofiteers.



Prescott Rodeo

Hailed as the "World's Oldest Rodeo," the event celebrates the cowboy heritage of Arizona and the West.

Documentation consists of thirteen pages of text and twelve black and white photographs of various sizes.

Originally submitted by: John McCain, Senator.

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Boycott Air Canada, Greyhound,
all Canadian tourism, products such as lumber, meat,
alcohol, fish until
sealclubbing is banned.
http://seashepherd.org/seals/seals.html
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=martha

Why the hell would he want forgiveness from the people that held him captive and tortured him for years?

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We do what we must because we can,for the good of all of us....except the ones that are dead.

Because two wrongs don't make a right?

I dunno...just something my mother once told me...when we were still speaking.

Contrary to probably suspicions, I DO have a mother.

[quote="arc108"]Cindy McCain was once a rodeo queen. None of us
is the same as we were yesterday, let alone 20 or 30 years ago. God
give Mrs McCain the grace to work for the alleviation of the suffering
of Arizona's people and animals.

Her husband was bombing women in a loadable factory when
he was shot down. God give him the grace to ask forgiveness of
the Vietnamese, 4 million of whom were killed by the actions
of capitalist warprofiteers.

WHAT A BUNCH OF HORSE CRAP!!!!! The communists (you sound like one) lost half a million, and after we were pulled out while we were winning, 3 million Cambodians, South Vietnamese, and Laotians died, and the living were forced into communism. The wimp asses who caused the pullout should ask forgiveness of all the people killed or put in "re-education" camps, or that lost all their hard earned property, and freedom.

Something happened to McCain to make him become a traitor with his amnesty bill. Bought by special interests who are enemies of America.

I am the real thing, and was there, flying over 900 unarmed medical evacuations 69-70. We rescued little flower girls covered in blood from being attacked by the communists, and even some of the enemy, too. I did 50 hoist missions, do you have any idea what that is like? Do you know what unselfish sacrifice is?

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Semper Fi Johhny.

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We do what we must because we can,for the good of all of us....except the ones that are dead.

It's pretty well documented that we were getting our butts kicked in Viet Nam.

And after four years , we're getting our butts kicked in Iraq.

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Up the Irons!

Probably because you screwed everything up the first time you were there.

>>>>>Reports from people there say we are killing 50 to 1 of the insurgents in Iraq, but I don't know for sure because I haven't been there. Some of these reports were completely free of any censorship and from honest Americans.
Vietnam is different, I was there, in real combat in 69-70. It is not a well documented fact we were getting out butts kicked, just the opposite Read the memoirs of the enemy commander, General Giap. He said himself that he was losing and if it wasn't for people like Jane Fonda and John Kerry getting to pull the US out, he would have lost in less than two years. The Tet Offensive of '68 just about did him in with losses, while traitors like Cronkite reported falsely of the opposite. When I was there we were kicking total ass in at least 9 out of 10 battles, and I was involved in all of III & IV Corps (the whole southern half of South Vietnam). Oh, and I was there a whole tour, unlike Kerry's 3 1/4 months, and I turned down the Purple Heart, and earned and didn't get many, many more medals than he did. See the above post.
Take your shit and pile it somewhere else.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Perhaps a grave error to think that win/lose is decided by body counts....unless the entire goal is just to end up on the less costly side of a body count.

For instance, it is generally conceded that the CSA lost the War of Northern Agression...despite having less casualties than the Federals.

I'll take my proverbial excrement and pile it anywhere I please. You're welcome.

What does Kerry being in Viet Nam have to do with anything as it pertains to this discussion? Other than saying how much more courage you thought you displayed and the fact that you turned down a Purple Heart. Big whoop. I've got plenty of awards too from my NINE YEARS OF SERVICE in the military but not a one is an Enemy Marksmanship Badge (Purple Heart).

I have a friend of mine who just returned from a 12 month tour in Iraq. Even if the calculations are correct of a 50 to 1 ratio of guerrilla fighters being killed as compared to one American, I would say that the guerrilla's are doing a pretty good job of targetting their enemy. During his time there, his battalion, mind you, his battalion encountered over 700 IED's and purposely detonated over 200.

And yes, I call them guerrilla fighters because that is exactly what they are. The government calls them insurgents because they are rebelling against OUR government-imposed rule. I'm sure they view themselves as freedom fighters. I would expect that the citizenry of the US would conduct themsevles in a similar manner if they were invaded and overtaken by a foreign entity.

Lest one forget about the 10 Year War in Afghanistan? The Afghani's fought a guerrilla war against an invading Soviet Republic and they repelled the Soviets even though they were undermanned, undertrained and underequipped, yet supplied by outside forces. The US has now spent 4 years in Iraq, have established a puppet government and haven't completed their objective of suppressing the guerrilla fighters. You cannot defeat spirit and belief. Two aspects that the US takes pride in and is known for, rightfully so as evidenced by their defeat of the British government in the Revolutionary War and other military operations. The US is now experiencing these same qualities in a fighting force that has religion as their driving force. And a belief in religion is one of the strongest driving forces man can create.

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Up the Irons!

CapSwine, So you don't understand Vietnam Dustoff and what we did. You spent nine years in the service, when? How long in combat?
"Religious" fighters are fanatics often, that is why "Mohammed" (not his real name) made up the religion and book, to get fighters so he could pillage Mecca, then have power and wealth.
Look at how the Japanese were for their "Holy" Emperor in WWII. Look at the Mormon faithful following an 1820 made up book and giving 10% of their earnings to BS. Read "The Historical Jesus" for crap in the New Testament.
People will also fanatically fight for their homeland, sovereignty, and especially family and friends. They will also fight for economic and territorial reasons, culture, and ideals. People will also fight for water, food, and to survive, and with no honor or rules (like the NVA and VC shooting down unarmed red cross helicopters, or the suicide bombers into children and totally civilian targets). People that think they can get away with it, will invade and over-reproduce to outnumber those they invade for an unarmed (mostly) attempt at conquest. That is what John McCain is trying to enable, for what true reasons I don't know.
Read "Immigration's Unarmed Invasion : Deadly Consequences", 2004, Wooldridge. I guest wrote chapter 29.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

When I served and if I saw combat is irrelevent as I know exactly how that aspect of the discussion will go. "You didn't serve in my time and you didn't see the combat I saw so my opinion on the subject trumps yours."

I understand Dustoff to the extent that it was an ambulatory rapid evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield by helicoptor and that the evacuations/extractions frequently occurred in the thick of combat.

You can believe that if I'm in a fight for my life that no rules will apply to my actions as well. You can call it dishonorable all you want, but I will have no compunctions about taking out the aggressor and all equipment, personnel and support by any and all means immediately available to me.

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Up the Irons!

Let's see, Tet of '68 I had one friend in a small perimeter base outside Da Nang. When the sappers came through the wire they went through the stock of ammo pretty fast. They only had 1000 rounds for the base so when they ran out they had to bug out the best they could.

Another friend was running his track up and down the length of South Vietnam trying to put on enough of a show to convince the enemy there was much more armor support than there actually was. It was a huge gamble because they never had more than 3 rounds for their main gun at any given time, but what would you expect from a unit commanded by a Patton?

Over the years we have discussed how close the Viet Cong came in '68 to being able to claim victory, and how that victory would be defined. Since a guerrilla force in a guerrilla war can never win, by definition they lost. But in the results of their action and the later success of the NVA they did win their goal. The war could and should have been fought differently in the North, which would have created a different war in the South and there would not have been such a gamble in '68. There also would not have been a US "victory" just as there was never a Japanese or French "victory" in the guerrilla wars they fought.

We have also discussed the changes in the US Army over the time. The increased number of "fragging" events, the changing rules for crossing the borders both legally and illegally to fight the enemy. The treatment of the population by the troops in a guerrilla conflict. There were things done by US troops of which none of us can be proud. Some were openly discussed as in the case of My Lai and others are only hinted at in long private conversations. For such a small random sampling of the people involved to all indicate these actions, is significant support to the claims of others with similar reports. How widespread this was cannot be clearly determined but that it did occur cannot be denied.

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Well, Giap said he lost 2/3 of his entire Army in Tet '68. We lost 2%. Like I said in a previous post. We picked up civilian wounded and even women with "birth difficulties", and even the enemy, along with US and ARVN and Aussies. The communists terrorized the civilian populace and caused a lot of casualties, including those flower girls. Never did I get called on a mission to pick up civilian casualties caused by our troops or allies. I never even heard of it happening, except My Lai where commies supported reluctantly by the village killed some US troops and mutilated their bodies a day or two before. There's one thing that moral US soldiers don't like to see and go piss mad from and that is seeing their brothers mutilated. I got that way when I rescued those bloody flower girls. I didn't like getting shot down and getting a permanent back injury either, when it was against the rules of the Geneva Convention to shoot at us. We had the highest helicopter loss rate of the war and an even higher casualty rate than the infantry. I never could see the wisdom of following the rules when the enemy doesn't. It is stupid.
We've got three distinct enemies and are only fighting part of one, while guys like McCain have gone to the dark side and want to allow the continued ecological, cultural, and sovereign ruin of the US.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein