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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:46 am 
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I agree with you hunter88, note in my posts on the previous page.
One thing that has not been noted is that ICE was not present when they should have been, and in effective numbers, even if that meant temporarily deputizing honorable citizens and veterans to help.
Illegal immigration itself is a misdemeanor at present, but aiding and abetting an illegal IS a felony under present laws. So everyone in those marches were blatant criminals. It is total BS that states and localities do not also enforce Federal Law, which they should, seeing it is Federal Law that binds the states into the United States of America. They saw the ineffective feds and executive branch also blatantly violating their oaths, and now the push is to see how far they can bully the corporations who finance the politicians, along with the un-deputized majority who really want them out. 80 million of us are gun owners, and when push comes to shove................figure it out. :roll: 8) :wink: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:58 am 
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hunter88 wrote:
I think many people miss how important health cares costs are to business owners, and how much they cut into the bottomline. A while back I was talking to a guy about how my health insurance went up again. I'm self employed and my Blue Cross policy for just me and one daughter went up to $300 a month, and that is a $5000 deductable policy.Which means I never use it. This guy told me he figured out for his 4 employees that just adding in the increase in their health insurance it was now costing him from 94 cents and hour up to $2.14 an hour more for his 4 employees. And that's just the increase.


I very good point. The "hidden" costs to an employer is significant. The FICA and Medicare taken out of every employees check is matched by the employer on top of the pay. That means for every dollar in payroll the employer is paying $0.06 right along with the employee. Our health insurance was at work was set up that we paid for the employee and they paid for any dependents they added. Over the last 15 years the renewal increase per year has been ~20%, which has resulted in my shopping every year. A few years we were able to keep the same deductible, etc. for a lower price than the renewal quote. Most of the time we have had to increase the deduct able, prescription, and out of pocket expenses to keep the costs in line. If I had kept the original coverage and the percent increase had remained the same I would be paying something like 13 times the original costs. As it is I am only paying about 6 times that original cost but it is still several thousand dollars a month for a small business. The paid health insurance, unemployment insurance, workers comp, vacation, sick days, cafeteria plan, and the matching retirement adds between 40-50% to the hourly costs for the average employee. We are a professional industry so there is an incentive to keep good people, but the workforce make up in the service sector has changed significantly here in the last few years.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:38 am 
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In my opinion we've done this to ourselves. As a country we've demanded more and more of our employers. This has put us in a position where someone illegal can step in and gladly take a job without all the bells and whistles.

Some say we need these people to do these jobs. What they're really saying is we need a low level group of people to do jobs at a reduced wage and benifit package to keep our economy strong. Well if a low level group that works for low wages keeps an economy strong, then Mexico should have a very strong economy, but they don't.

Like everything else nowadays it's all about politics. One party doesn't want to tick of the business owners that hire low wage employees, and the other panders to what it preceives as a new voting block. The day politicians start thinking as Americans instead of Democrats or Republicians, and quit worrying about what they have to do to get re-elected, we'll all be better off. Unfortunately today they all see it as a right or left thing, instead of a right or wrong thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:57 am 
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hunter88 wrote:
In my opinion we've done this to ourselves. As a country we've demanded more and more of our employers. This has put us in a position where someone illegal can step in and gladly take a job without all the bells and whistles.

Some say we need these people to do these jobs. What they're really saying is we need a low level group of people to do jobs at a reduced wage and benifit package to keep our economy strong. Well if a low level group that works for low wages keeps an economy strong, then Mexico should have a very strong economy, but they don't.

Like everything else nowadays it's all about politics. One party doesn't want to tick of the business owners that hire low wage employees, and the other panders to what it preceives as a new voting block. The day politicians start thinking as Americans instead of Democrats or



Republicians, and quit worrying about what they have to do to get re-elected, we'll all be better off. Unfortunately today they all see it as a right or left thing, instead of a right or wrong thing.


Hunter I couldn't agree with you more. You have hit the proverbial nail on the head with that post! Very perceptive.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:18 pm 
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The large problem is the wish to pay as little for everything as possible while getting as much as possible for our labors. Thus, we have so much being produced in low labor cost countries while our higher labor cost products suffer from the competition. This is partially why there is the low cost labor market, few of the citizens of the US can live on the wages paid and will not form the communal support that would allow such survival. Combined with the ability to siphon a very little of that low wage off to support a family in their country, this becomes a win-win from their perspective but not one which most of the legal residents will even consider.

Many of the employers of illegal aliens still pay them wages similar to that they would pay any other worker, but the illegals have a better work ethic in many cases.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:41 pm 
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Many of the employers of illegal aliens still pay them wages similar to that they would pay any other worker, but the illegals have a better work ethic in many cases.


Which takes us back to something I touched on earlier. I'm not sure if it's their work ethic is good, or ours has gone to pot. It seems the three top retirement plans are welfare, a lottery ticket, or sue someone. When you come to rely on someone or something you forget how to take care of yourself and your family. The illegals have no Government to help them, so they know how to take care of themselves.

During my discussions with people on the horse slaughter issue, many say there are just Mexicans working in those plants so it won't hurt to shut them down. They are just meaningless minimum wage jobs. My answer has always been, well at least they're taking responsibility for their family, willing to work at any kind of job to support them. Rather then just sit around drawing another welfare check.

Look what happened when Katrina hit. Most of New Orleans lived off the city, or the state, or the Federal Govt. When they had to take care of themselves, they didn't know what to do. Some thought finding Nikes and plasma TVs at 100% off, is fending for yourself. Sometimes I am amazed at people's inability to care for themselves when something like a hurricane happens. But then I've never lived in a big city like they do, and accordingly I've had the opportunity to experience situations where you have to take care of yourself, because there is no one else around to do it.

I wonder if this country would really fall apart if welfare stopped tomorrow. I wouldn't mind finding out.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:21 pm 
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hunter88 wrote:
I wonder if this country would really fall apart if welfare stopped tomorrow. I wouldn't mind finding out.

Well, I'd hate to think what would happen if "the terrorists" were able to set off a couple of dirty bombs in different cities. The federal government obviously has no ability to respond to multiple crises in different geographies. The surest sign that there probably isn't much of an al queda threat here in the US is that they didn't hit in another part of the country when Katrina happened.

I agree that many in America are completely unprepared for an interruption of basic services in their lives. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that many of the people looking for government handouts after Katrina were not the stereotypes you would imagine. A lot of very wealthy people were cut off from their bank accounts and forced to look for outside help.

-josh


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
I agree that many in America are completely unprepared for an interruption of basic services in their lives. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that many of the people looking for government handouts after Katrina were not the stereotypes you would imagine. A lot of very wealthy people were cut off from their bank accounts and forced to look for outside help.


Too much technology is not always a good thing. But then again a little technology can go a long ways. I got tired of the power going out in the winter and the house getting cold. I now have a wood stove that can heat my entire house. Didn't even have to buy propane this winter. It does require power to run the small squirrel cage blower, but this can be covered by a battery and a 12 volt to 110 volt power converter.

The key will be what would happen if terrorists were able to set off 4 or 5 small nukes at the same time in different cities. One in NY and one in Houston would shut down or cripple the country's financial markets and banks, and shut off or cripple the gas supply. It would also be possible that the power grid could not handle it. So a person could find themself with no ability to get money, gas, or power. The person that lives from paycheck to paycheck could find themself in trouble.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:52 pm 
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hunter88 wrote:
The person that lives from paycheck to paycheck could find themself in trouble.

That's like 80%+ of US citizens, isn't it? :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:20 pm 
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hunter88 wrote:
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Many of the employers of illegal aliens still pay them wages similar to that they would pay any other worker, but the illegals have a better work ethic in many cases.


Which takes us back to something I touched on earlier. I'm not sure if it's their work ethic is good, or ours has gone to pot. It seems the three top retirement plans are welfare, a lottery ticket, or sue someone. When you come to rely on someone or something you forget how to take care of yourself and your family. The illegals have no Government to help them, so they know how to take care of themselves.


Actually, very few people can "take care of themselves" in reality. The ability to save enough for a secure retirement is really beyond the ability of most people to comprehend. Even winning a lottery is no guarantee of financial security. If one is forced to pay for their own medical bills or their own medical insurance that could be more than anyone could allocate in their retirement planning. I know of more than a few people who through their financial planning expected to have retired by now, but the reality of health care or other costs have caused them to rethink their plans. There are even many incidents of those winning the lottery or becoming very wealthy only to be bankrupt just as quickly

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:58 pm 
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Actually, very few people can "take care of themselves" in reality. The ability to save enough for a secure retirement is really beyond the ability of most people to comprehend. Even winning a lottery is no guarantee of financial security. If one is forced to pay for their own medical bills or their own medical insurance that could be more than anyone could allocate in their retirement planning. I know of more than a few people who through their financial planning expected to have retired by now, but the reality of health care or other costs have caused them to rethink their plans. There are even many incidents of those winning the lottery or becoming very wealthy only to be bankrupt just as quickly


True. My point was that too many people are looking for the easy way out, welfare, lottery,or sue someone, rather then work for their retirement.

And this easy way out attitude has carried over into the way many see work. Give me $50 and hour for a job that really should be worth $20. Why, because I deserve it. Give me all my health care, so if I even think I might not feel right I can go in and get myself checked out without spending anything. Why, because I deserve it. And then when I'm getting $50 an hour and all my health care covered don't expect me to show up everyday for work. And we laugh at the riots over in France because they want to pass a law that says they can fire someone under 26 if they don't work out. We shake our heads and say you sure wouldn't see that here, lol. Is there that much difference between a 20 year old in France wanting a job he cannot be fired from, or someone here that really doesn't want to work, yet demands $50 an hour with benifits for a $20 an hour job. We're going down a slippery slope here, and watching all the illegals working here should show us that.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:07 pm 
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hunter88 wrote:
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Actually, very few people can "take care of themselves" in reality. The ability to save enough for a secure retirement is really beyond the ability of most people to comprehend. Even winning a lottery is no guarantee of financial security. If one is forced to pay for their own medical bills or their own medical insurance that could be more than anyone could allocate in their retirement planning. I know of more than a few people who through their financial planning expected to have retired by now, but the reality of health care or other costs have caused them to rethink their plans. There are even many incidents of those winning the lottery or becoming very wealthy only to be bankrupt just as quickly


True. My point was that too many people are looking for the easy way out, welfare, lottery,or sue someone, rather then work for their retirement.

And this easy way out attitude has carried over into the way many see work. Give me $50 and hour for a job that really should be worth $20. Why, because I deserve it. Give me all my health care, so if I even think I might not feel right I can go in and get myself checked out without spending anything. Why, because I deserve it. And then when I'm getting $50 an hour and all my health care covered don't expect me to show up everyday for work. And we laugh at the riots over in France because they want to pass a law that says they can fire someone under 26 if they don't work out. We shake our heads and say you sure wouldn't see that here, lol. Is there that much difference between a 20 year old in France wanting a job he cannot be fired from, or someone here that really doesn't want to work, yet demands $50 an hour with benifits for a $20 an hour job. We're going down a slippery slope here, and watching all the illegals working here should show us that.


Yes, I have seen that too. My wife's step-father retired from Ford Motor Co. and when they were calculating the hours he had to go he tired to get more hours to do it faster. The bosses would give him "work to do" and "estimated" hours to get it done toward that goal. He retired 6 months early and most of the "extra work" he did was so over inflated hour wise that it was a gift. Too many union jobs are like that and too many companies will abuse their employees without unions if they can. There is never a equilibrium maintained because one side or the other perceives a slight now or in the past and tries to "get even". Don't even get me started on the abuses I saw in the mining industry growing up... form both sides of the issue.

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