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 Post subject: Iraq War
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:13 pm 
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I'm starting this thread for general discussion about the Iraq war.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:18 pm 
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I just read this article and my stomach turned:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

Quote:
A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.
<snip>
Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn't been completed.

One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

“This one is ugly," one official told NBC News.

This is the type of thing that starts happening when you have soldiers who are at their breaking point. They are at a breaking point because of the poor planning and lack of needed resources. When will our government come to its senses and get us out of there??

My heart breaks in situations like this not only for the poor victims and their families, but for the soldiers who cracked and did this. We need to bring our troops home and make sure that we do not get involved with boondoggles like this again.

-josh


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:28 pm 
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If this is true, they should be executed.

I'm outraged. And this is probably not an isolated incident by any means.

One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead...


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:35 pm 
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Having never been in the military let alone in a war, I won't judge the marines for what they did. I do however think that it was a horrible crime and that they should be punished for it.

Personally I think the war has done some good as well as bad.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:37 pm 
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Origam wrote:
Having never been in the military let alone in a war, I won't judge the marines for what they did. I do however think that it was a horrible crime and that they should be punished for it.

Personally I think the war has done some good as well as bad.



What good?


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:40 pm 
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Grace wrote:
If this is true, they should be executed.

No, the "leaders" that sent unprepared and ill-equipped soldiers into a missionless war should be strung up. Seriously... I know what these specific soldiers did was horrific, but any human being put into that type of situation is going to crack at some point. War should be the absolutely last resort for this very reason. You not only kill your enemies, but you break the spirit of your own people if it is unjustified and poorly executed.

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I'm outraged. And this is probably not an isolated incident by any means.

No, it is definitely not isolated. War is hell. There have been attrocities on both sides in every war in human history. You can't expect to send soldiers into war and not have a whole bunch of them come out of it a bit insane. Of course it further helps things if you cut psychological assistance programs for vets, like Bush has.

This insanity has got to end.

-josh


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Grace wrote:
What good?


The people no longer have to fear Saddam, the women are a bit freer.. little things like that.

Until the people of Iraq figure out how to live somewhat peacefully with each other, and stand up to the bombers/people who want to oppress them.. they won't ever truely be free and the minute we step out someone else will step in and take over.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:44 pm 
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josh knauer wrote:
Of course it further helps things if you cut psychological assistance programs for vets, like Bush has.

This insanity has got to end.

-josh


The way that a lot of men and women who served their country faithfully and gave many years of their lives to it are treated in regards to any kind of medical care sucks. It wasn't just Bush that cut programs though..

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:50 pm 
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josh knauer wrote:
Grace wrote:
If this is true, they should be executed.

No, the "leaders" that sent unprepared and ill-equipped soldiers into a missionless war should be strung up. Seriously... I know what these specific soldiers did was horrific, but any human being put into that type of situation is going to crack at some point. War should be the absolutely last resort for this very reason. You not only kill your enemies, but you break the spirit of your own people if it is unjustified and poorly executed.

Quote:
I'm outraged. And this is probably not an isolated incident by any means.

No, it is definitely not isolated. War is hell. There have been attrocities on both sides in every war in human history. You can't expect to send soldiers into war and not have a whole bunch of them come out of it a bit insane. Of course it further helps things if you cut psychological assistance programs for vets, like Bush has.

This insanity has got to end.

-josh



I suppose I jumped the gun not considering their mental state. I know they're in living hell. Including the citizens. I try to stay away from these types of articles and the war news in general. I get sick to my stomach. I stopped over a year ago after pouring through pictures and updates daily. It was seriously affecting my mental well being. But it's wrong to stick your head in the sand too. What the hell can you do.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:13 pm 
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The troops are stuck in the same quagmire as was Viet Nam. They do not know if the little old lady is going to smile at them, detonate a bomb in the road, of blow up herself .... Imagine not beign able to trust anyone you see and know that at least some of them want to kill you if they get the chance. It is a no-win situation for troops who are trained to fight soldiers and are now more like policemen.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:29 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
The troops are stuck in the same quagmire as was Viet Nam. They do not know if the little old lady is going to smile at them, detonate a bomb in the road, of blow up herself .... Imagine not beign able to trust anyone you see and know that at least some of them want to kill you if they get the chance. It is a no-win situation for troops who are trained to fight soldiers and are now more like policemen.


Exactly. I don't envy those guys. I just hope the best for them and the people they are trying to help.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:41 pm 
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The war in Iraq was over in a few weeks. It's the peace that takes a long time. The problem is the people of Iraq will not step forward and help to rid their own country of the car bombers. But then why should they. In 1991 we said we'd help them, but like today we let it get politicial and we left them high and dry. Saddam killed thousands of them. Why should they believe us now when we say we'll help them. Again it's turned political, and before it's all over we just may leave them high and dry again. Why would anyone ever turst us again, if we let that happen.

Grace, there's a lot of good stories in Iraq too. You just have to want to go looking for them, because you'll never see them on the evening news. The bad teenage kids make the news, the good ones are never seen. The bad Iraq stories make the news, the good ones are never seen. That's just the way it works today.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:53 am 
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hunter88 wrote:
Grace, there's a lot of good stories in Iraq too. You just have to want to go looking for them, because you'll never see them on the evening news. The bad teenage kids make the news, the good ones are never seen. The bad Iraq stories make the news, the good ones are never seen. That's just the way it works today.

Hunter88- This is a smokescreen. Of course there's good news to be found everywhere in the world, but I can tell you from direct knowledge that the situation through almost all of Iraq is dire. Yes of course there are nice feel-good stories to be had, but the overwhelming feeling among the populace there is that things are in fact worse than when Sadam was in power. From their perspective, the basic infrastructure is completely hosed (intermitent electricity, water, sewage services, etc.) and the country is basically in a state of civil war.

Most of the acts of violence that are happening now are not traditional "terrorists" but rather it is sectarian violence among many different religious sects, clans, etc. that are fighting for power and control. This is widespread and throughout most of the country. Buying into the "al queda controls Iraq" line is buying into the same over-simplified misinformed bullshit that got us there in the first place.

-josh


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:02 am 
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I'm not convinced the cost of Iraq's democracy is worth the sacrifice of 10's of thousands of our soldiers wounded, maimed or and killed [so far] which doesn't include the Iraqi citizens (and just what is that true number??) who've died and/or been mained/wounded, which also doesn't include the animal life either. Hundreds of thousands? Billions of dollars spent. Lies. And the "war on terror" lost its momentum a long time ago. I think the longer we're present there the longer we'll remain at risk for terrorism here in the U.S. (Homeland Security? :roll: ).


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:12 am 
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I got to spend some of the Homeland Security grant the department got when I was back in San Diego. :shock: I sure felt safer when I made my purchases. :lol:

I wonder how well Homeland Security has prepared the United States for acts of terrorism on our own soil? I can only speak from experience.. but back in San Diego they were prepared for something minor but if something major happened they'd be SOL. The First Responders are great and their training rocked.. but the fact that ALL the law enforcement and government agencies that should be a part of it didn't participate seemed kind of silly.

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