EnviroLink Forum

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India celebrated Ganesha Chaturthi yesterday, the Hindu festival celebrated on the birthday (rebirth) of Lord Ganesha, the Elephant headed God.

After torturing, slaughtering and decimating Elephants with Industrial Activity, millions of Indians worshipped the Elephant headed God for wisdom, prosperity and good fortune.

What wisdom!!!

What kind of prosperity and good fortune do people expect after destroying biodiversity and ecosystems with Industrial Activity???

After destroying nature, man will not even exist on earth.
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After destroying planet Earth.....After destroying most of the biodiversity and ecosystems, Industrial Society should be in mourning but it wants to celebrate instead.

It wants to celebrate Holi, Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals.

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only mourning.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.

Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!

Celebrate Holi, Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals!!!!.....Go Shopping.....Spend Money.....Buy Gifts....Buy thousands of consumer goods and services.....Promote and Accelerate Industrial Activity which will kill even more Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

And then wait for next year to celebrate the death of nature once more.
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Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

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Why agrarian which is generally industrial based? Why not set hunting and gathering as the limit? Some folks think agriculture inevitably led to everything else.

My own limit is once again whatever is sustainable within a self-sufficient community. I think our pre-Columbian Native American societies came pretty close to that.

The many tons of nuclear waste should have started being fuel for waste using Gen IV reactors back in 1994 (read Hansen's "Storms of MY Grandchildren"). I agree, most of the holidays and festivals are ridiculous and ways for people to consume more. The advertizing is sickening. Too many sales people, too many advertisers, too many spammers, and first, way too many people.
The pre-Columbian North America had mostly migration/traveling bands of people. Some stayed in one place until long term drought hit, and others had basically summer and winter camp spots. The wise ones would get them to move when resources and game started to get low, and their waste piles too deep and smelly. When there were too many, they would go to war with nearby tribes.
When the Vikings "discovered" America in 998 and set up a village, they eventually had to join the Chippewa to survive the harsh winters. So the Chippewas are the only tribe with all five genetic markers of the Solutrians of France. Whites are closest to the tribes of both North and South America, genetically.
India and China have both been far beyond long term interglacial sustainability for over a thousand years, suffering numerous plagues, famines, and wars because of it. That was at the agrarian society level with some water powered mills and factories making tools and other things. In those places the need would be to get to what the population was at least 1400 years ago. Similar in Europe and the middle east, and islands. The Americas were at sustainable population long term when Columbus came with the Spanish conquest.
Seeing the mass die-off of humanity can not be stopped, after 2050 there will be little industrialization. With increasing climate fluctuation failing crops every third year or less, the agrarian society will have a tough go especially with roving bands of thieves and killers. With aquifers dry and most soil ruined, the population will not be able to rise much, and in fact will decrease as temperatures rise and other pollution or geologic events happen. The day of population zero will be when the surface is too inhospitable for human life. Underground and space colonies may or may not last very much longer. The underground colonies will run out of fuel or some critical supplies and the surface will not provide them sometime in the over 200K year resequestration period. The space voyager colonies may find a good planet, but the odds are against it. If they do, they probably will not return to Earth in several million years when it is liveable for humans (maybe) again.
Never stop education is my opinion, even in a failing ecosystem.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

It is true that Agrarian Society was much more destructive than Hunter_Gatherer Society, but it was millions of times less destructive than Industrial Society.

There is no way Agrarian Society could have taken down the entire planet like Industrial Society has done.

This planet would have been in very good condition today if Industrialization had not happened and if man had stayed in the Agrarian Stage.

Agrarian Society would have destroyed some ecosystems on the land [Forests] but Marine Ecology [Oceans] would have been almost 100% safe today......Forest Cover would be much greater than what it is now....Millions of species on the land and in the sea would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations......This planet would be free of Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The Oceans wouldn't have become Acidic, Warmer and Oxygen Deprived because of Industrial Waste.

Agrarian Society destroyed environment for Agriculture.

Industrial Society has destroyed environment for Agriculture plus Industry.

All the extra destruction of environment for Industrial Activity was absent in Agrarian Society.

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There were two major switch overs in human history.

From Hunter_Gatherer stage to Agrarian stage.

From Agrarian stage to Industrial stage.

The first may very well be excused, but not the second.

When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer to Agrarian he was not aware of the small size of the planet and the limited natural resources it contains.

When man switched over from Agrarian to Industrial he was quite aware of the small size of the planet and the limited natural resources it contains, therefore he should have stopped at the Agrarian Stage.
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What is happening in Industrial Society is height of criminality.

Industrial Society is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Consumer Goods are unnecessary, destructive and worthless.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.
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We always have the option of stopping at any stage we want.

We always have the option of choosing what kind of work we want to do.

We can use our energy and time for three kinds of work/ activity......Physical Work, Subjective Experience and Mental Work.

Industrialization happened because some people focused their energy on mental work/ reason/ thought.

If people had continued to use their time and energy for Physical Work and Subjective Experience, industrialization would not have happened.

Urban Work of Industrial Society is unnecessary, destructive and worthless.

It has to be stopped immediately.

If man does not stop production of thousands of consumer goods immediately, he will be wiped out within a few years (Millions of other species have already been decimated).
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Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

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Anything looking remotely like agriculture as we know it requires a major industrial input.


Modern coastal ocean aquaculture which is becoming more and more a source of food mimics agriculture in its practices.

Modern industrial practices derive originally from coal. Once they put it together with the steam engine then we were in the soup.


Not unless you have a clear definable metric. For instance when does agriculture become industrial? Is making an iron plough industrial? How about a hammer and nails? What about blacksmithing?

I do have a clear metric. That would be living as a community in a definable area of land in a sustainable way. That beats the foggy agricultural limit by a country mile.

Where does the fog end and the country mile begin? Was there a measurement study? Is a country mile enough or should we shoot for more? How far is a country mile anyway?




</trolling>

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TANG SOO!

It travels all the way to a figure of speech.

Industrial-agricultural society, some hope but not much. A little blast from the past.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/20/scien ... 0MANA.html

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It is pointless to criticize agrarian society for environmental destruction when we are currently living in industrial society which is millions of times more destructive than agrarian society.

The current destruction of environment is happening because of Industrial Activity.

This destruction of environment can only be stooped by stopping industrial activity (or minimizing it).

Criticism of agrarian society is not going to stop the environmental destruction that is currently happening because of industrial activity.

It would make sense to criticize agrarian society only if we somehow manage to return back to agrarian stage.
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If someone falls sick today in industrial society and goes to the doctor, he has to be given some kind of treatment or medicine today to get well.

He is not going to get well if the doctor instead of giving him treatment or medicine gives him a lecture on how people used to be treated for sickness in agrarian society.

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That is an opinion unsupported by any empirical measurement in its support. One may be worse than the other, but the point which is being missed is whether the option being proposed is a solution in the long term.



The question then becomes how much minimalization is sufficient, which is why the question of whether the option suggested would be a solution or just a stop gap delay.



It makes sense if the proposal is to return to an agrarian stage is supposedly out only or best option. If it will not be sufficient as a solution it is probably not going to have any real consideration.




If that person is treated the same as people used to be treated in an agrarian society will he recover as quickly and completely as in an industrial society or will he suffer more for no beneficial outcome? That is the reason for the question of the proposed solution.

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With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Interesting article from 2002, showing the beginnings of the now more accepted term Anthropocene Epoch.
They had this wrong back then: "No matter what they come up with, ice ages, volcanoes and shifting tectonic plates will dwarf human activities in the long run." Humans have been putting out 140 times the volcanic output of GHGs. If the emissions are not lowered 90% in 3 to 9 years, then eventually thermal maximum will prevent the ice age for probably two cycles and the ELE caused by change at least ten times faster than known with PETM, will be larger than even the "K-T Event". The Indonesian earthquake/tsunami of 12-26-04 was described in number of nuclear bombs which was less than what exists in human hands. However, tectonic activity and some geologic events due are more powerful than human activity in some ways.
The real underlying reason that industrial activity is so destructive is the demands from gross overpopulation. The same for the rate of soil depletion from all human causes, and the rate of aquifer depletion and surface water depletion and pollution, along with sea pollution and over-harvesting. A purely agricultural society, if too large, would still cause this depletion. The population of India is so large that even the dung cooking fires are a major pollution source, with their carbon soot landing on Greenland glaciers helping to melt them.
In a hunter-gatherer society, too many people still leads to depletion of game and edible plants, which can lead to desertification, extinction of many edible life forms and mass die-off of humans in a region.
In each way of living, each "society", there is a limit on numbers of people and they must be guided by ones with wisdom, if they are to be sustained over a longer period, such as the interglacial epoch. During the glacial period, there is less sustainability on a planetary scale.
It is this Anthropocene Epoch with over-crowding that causes some to have increased anxiety, depression, and hostility. Those already with the negative genetic trait of crowd tolerance, like most in India, even reach a point of being affected. Those in the USA are mostly of crowd intolerant people, but gross over-immigration (since 1965) is of mainly crowd tolerant over-breeders, generally lacking in foresight and math/science abilities(except those much lesser amounts replacing laid off American tech workers). So most places, with or without , or with different, crowd tolerance, people are basically hostile. In some logic fails them, and in more, they have no logic, IMHO. Greed and selfishness reign as the biosphere heads toward thermageddon. First the mid-century crash, then the thermal effects over the next 500 years until max, then most life gone for over 200K years and another several million to get enough species and eco-systems for a vibrant biosphere again, without humans.
All preventable by human change of behavior and morals in a limited amount of time they let pass, or probably will let pass with too little too late in emissions reductions.
Industrial activity makes a percentage of these emissions (~40%), transportation a lesser amount9~29%), and slash and burn agriculture another 30% of which 3% is caused by agricultural animals. Natural CO2 and other GHG output was within the range of the seasonal CO2 input of plants on land and in the seas. If we are to prevent enough emissions in time, all of these sources must reduce 90% by 2023 or before. As this "Titanic" goes down, there are still those disputing whether it is sinking or not. As sustainability reduces more and more, there are less "life boats", and when the tipping points of methane turnover are breached (another natural force greater than humans can stop), there will be no lifeboats.

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

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This is regarding the issue of how much Industrial Activity can be allowed on this planet.

A person has been drinking heavily for decades and his liver is almost totally damaged.....How much more drinking is advisable to him???

A person has been smoking heavily for decades and his lungs are about to collapse.....How much more smoking is advisable to him???

A person is being stabbed repeatedly and is on the verge of dying.....How much more stabbing can he take???

A person is being shot repeatedly and is on the verge of dying.....How much more shooting can he take???
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Hundred years of relentless Industrial Activity has already destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.

There is hardly anything left.

The planet is dying and gasping for last breath.

How much more Industrial Activity is recommended for the planet???

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I come from a farming and ranching background. Some day maybe somebody will explain how modern agriculture and the industrial world are neatly separable. Besides transportation, the grid, massive forest clearance, fossil fuel based fertilizer etc. you have the overwhelming majority claim on industrial extracted and delivered water. I will admit I kind of liked the ranching affinity for the local low tech. blacksmith.

I like this statement by Sushi, and agree:
"Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners"

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"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”
― Chief Seattle

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Man has tortured, slaughtered and decimated millions of other species......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has decimated forests of the world ......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has littered the entire planet with billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has decimated fish in the oceans......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has made the oceans acidic and warmer and has created oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has poisoned the planet for the next thousands of years with thousands of tonnes of highly Radioactive Nuclear Waste......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has killed billions of acres of Fertile Soil with cement, concrete and asphalt......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has destroyed billions of acres of Agricultural Top Soil with millions of tonnes of Insecticides, Pesticides and Fertilizers......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has destroyed mountains, rivers and lakes......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has made the weather extreme, irregular and unpredictable with Industrial Activity......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Man has destroyed the entire planet......And people are still working for Human Welfare.

Human Welfare.....More Human Welfare......More and More Human Welfare.

I am sick of hearing about human welfare.

This planet is home to millions of species, not just man alone.

This planet is not the private property of man who can do whatever he wants.

This world would have been perfect without man.

Why was the human race created on earth???

If I had access to a button which could kill all industrialized humans, I would press it right now.
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For God's sake forget human welfare and think about the welfare of the planet.

Welfare of nature is millions of times more important than human welfare.

Man will not even exist on earth without nature.
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Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

Agrarian society was the limit for man on earth.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.
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If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Jobs, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.
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