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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:07 pm 
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It's hot out here, and when I walk into a building with AC, it feels sooooooo good.

But I live without it. Why? It's a feedback loop (catch 22).

It gets hotter, so we crank up the AC. The AC uses a lot of energy that comes from the grid (times the millions of units) and creates a little heat island outdoors. The result is the AC is a contributor to global warming.

So as it gets warmer outside, the AC has to work even higher, using more polluting energy from the grid, and creating a greater heat island outdoors. That makes the world hotter.

So the AC has to work even harder, using more energy and making that heat island even hotter.

So by using the AC we are contributing to global warming, which makes the AC work harder causing more global warming which makes the AC work harder causing more global warming which makes the AC work harder causing more global warming which makes the AC work harder causing more global warming, ad infinitum.

The International Energy Agency projects that by 2050 worldwide air conditioning will produce 2 billion tonnes of CO2 a year. And that doesn't take into account the heat emitted by the units themselves.

As much as like the cool, I can't justify using it.

So I painted my roof bright white, planted shade trees around the house but not directly over the roof, and when it's 90 degrees outside my Florida home, it's only 80 inside. Some fans take care of that.

https://pressreleases.responsesource.co ... the-room-/

The air conditioning trap: how cold air is heating the world https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -the-world

One of the great ironies of climate change is that as the planet warms, the technology that people need to stay cool will only make the climate hotter https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... he-planet/

Air conditioning is a big contributor to climate change. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/07/24/a ... hange.html

Why smarter surfaces, not air conditioning, is the answer for our scorching cities https://www.globalconstructionreview.co ... ng-cities/

So can you call yourself an environmentalist and run your AC, when you could paint your roof white, plant shade trees, install fans and do more non-polluting ways to keep your cool?

Think about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:29 am 
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Insulation and airtight design can drastically reduce the energy needed to keep indoor air conditions comfortable (temperature, humidity, freshness) via heat exchangers in what is called an HRV or ERV. Radiative cooling is a technology starting to be used where special surfaces aimed at cloudless sky (day or night) get very cold. This cold can be stored in various parts of the system to deliver cold when needed after collecting cold when the sky is clear. With thermal storage, heat pumps (in this case called air conditioners), can run when electricity rates are cheap and presumably mostly made with renewable sources and deliver the cold later as needed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:26 am 
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True, but isn't it still warming the earth, just less?

Since the dawn of evolution (or Adam & Eve if you prefer) well over 99% of the humans that have ever existed have done so without Air Conditioning.

That makes AC a want, and not a need.

So can we call ourselves an environmentalist if we use AC?

When the AC energy consumption in the US are greater than the industrial consumption, can we criticize industry without being hypocritical?

Can we justify heating the planet more so we can personally keep cool?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:05 am 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
True, but isn't it still warming the earth, just less?

Since the dawn of evolution (or Adam & Eve if you prefer) well over 99% of the humans that have ever existed have done so without Air Conditioning.

That makes AC a want, and not a need.

So can we call ourselves an environmentalist if we use AC?

When the AC energy consumption in the US are greater than the industrial consumption, can we criticize industry without being hypocritical?

Can we justify heating the planet more so we can personally keep cool?


The AC energy consumption in the US is not greater than the industrial consumption though. Commercial and residential AC is only 10% of the total energy consumption. Industrial AC is included in this figure so it is inflated. The commercial, industrial, and residential use of JUST electricity is roughly equal at 1/3 each, thus the industrial electricity usage exceeds the usage for AC by all sources and the total energy usage from all sources far exceed the AC usage for all sources.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/air-conditioning

Three-quarters of all homes in the United States have air conditioners. Air conditioners use about 6% of all the electricity produced in the United States, at an annual cost of about $29 billion to homeowners. As a result, roughly 117 million metric tons of carbon dioxide are released into the air each year. To learn more about air conditions, explore our Energy Saver 101 infographic on home cooling.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=1174&t=1

The residential sector’s electricity use for cooling was about 235 billion kWh in 2021, which was equal to about 16% of total residential sector electricity consumption and 6% of total U.S. electricity consumption.

The commercial sector, which includes commercial and institutional buildings, used about 153 billion kWh for cooling in 2021, which was equal to about 12% of total commercial sector electricity consumption and 4% of total U.S. electricity consumption.

https://www.epa.gov/energy/electricity-customers

Residential, commercial, and industrial customers each account for roughly one-third of the nation’s electricity use.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:29 pm 
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This is the same thing I am saying to my family and friends for the past few years. AC is actually a short-term solution but only some cares about this because most of them do not want themselves to be deprived of comfort that the technology is giving and just tell me that I just cannot afford it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:45 am 
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I guess different sources have different estimates.

However, AC is not necessary. Since the dawn of Homo sapiens (or Adam and Eve if you prefer) over 99% of the people who have ever lived on this earth have done so without air conditioning. We don't NEED AC, we WANT AC.

There are other ways to cool ourselves, many have proven themselves throughout history. White roofs, shade trees, dressing appropriately, and so on.

When I grew up in Florida, nobody had AC. All the houses had white roofs, people planted shade trees, they put storm awnings over the windows that shaded the window and could be dropped down for hurricanes, they insulated attics, they opened windows, and dressed appropriately.

Now we have houses with dark roofs, sealed up like tombs, with meters spinning like tops.

We also have dead cows in Kansas and crop changes all over.

You may want to rationalize your use of AC, but it's a major contributor to global warming.

I painted my roof white, planted shade trees around my house (but not over the roof) and when it's +90 degrees outside, it's a comfortable 80 inside. A couple of fans make that 80 quite comfortable. And I save hundreds of dollars of electricity costs as a bonus.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:16 pm 
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Also, heat kills and has killed in the past. Bad diet also used to kill a lot more people. Look at AC not as a luxury but as a lifesaving technology that is necessary for billions of people. With that perspective, it is not an option to go without a cool building temperature but it is optional on how you achieve this temperature regulation.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:29 pm 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
I guess different sources have different estimates.


Perhaps, but the sources I have found agree with each other and disagree with your source.


Quote:
However, AC is not necessary. Since the dawn of Homo sapiens (or Adam and Eve if you prefer) over 99% of the people who have ever lived on this earth have done so without air conditioning. We don't NEED AC, we WANT AC.


You do realize that a large number of those people who lived without AC also died without AC and sometimes due to the lack thereof. Also the planet is warming, which makes heat related deaths will be rising.


Quote:
You may want to rationalize your use of AC, but it's a major contributor to global warming.


Not according to the data available.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:59 am 
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Ann Vole wrote:
Also, heat kills and has killed in the past. Bad diet also used to kill a lot more people. Look at AC not as a luxury but as a lifesaving technology that is necessary for billions of people. With that perspective, it is not an option to go without a cool building temperature but it is optional on how you achieve this temperature regulation.


So the solution is to create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, ad infinitum.

I thought this was an environmental forum.

Sadly, I was mistaken.

It's a "let's gripe about others trashing the environment, while we continue to trash it because we want our creature comforts."

Oh well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:46 am 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
Ann Vole wrote:
Also, heat kills and has killed in the past. Bad diet also used to kill a lot more people. Look at AC not as a luxury but as a lifesaving technology that is necessary for billions of people. With that perspective, it is not an option to go without a cool building temperature but it is optional on how you achieve this temperature regulation.


So the solution is to create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, which will require more AC, which will create more heat, ad infinitum.

I thought this was an environmental forum.

Sadly, I was mistaken.

It's a "let's gripe about others trashing the environment, while we continue to trash it because we want our creature comforts."

Oh well.


Only if you make the false assumption that the additional heat from AC is significant, which it is not.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:02 pm 
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I was brought up with every bit helps. Weren't we supposed to do everything we can when we founded Earth Day? Think globally, act locally?

You can rationalize what you want. I gave sources, including one from Scientific American Magazine, (which is a scholarly and respected publication), who say that AC is a global warming factor. You can choose to believe or not.

I've read dozens of articles including one from an AC company that say the AC contributes to global warming. I have not read even one article that says it isn't.

If run your AC, can you criticize others who pollute? Is it "do as I say? Not as I do?"

I planted +30 trees on my lot, I consolidate my driving routes, I planted my yard with plants that neither need water nor fertilizer, I reuse - refuse - recycle, I drive like I'm in the historic Mobil Economy Run to get 100 extra miles per tankful, I buy as much local food as is available, I painted my roof bright white to reflect the heat, I air-dry laundry, I replaced my Edison light bulbs with LEDs, I choose not to use the AC, and more.

If everyone did that, we might buy more time before the climate change diminishes our food supply even further.

Won't you join me?

Bob

PS I live in Florida, and with the white roof and trees around the house (but not over the roof) it never-ever gets over 80 degrees F in the house. Using AC is an unnecessary use of power and if you are on the grid, your power is a pollutant contributing to global warming.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:47 pm 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
I was brought up with every bit helps. Weren't we supposed to do everything we can when we founded Earth Day? Think globally, act locally?

You can rationalize what you want. I gave sources, including one from Scientific American Magazine, (which is a scholarly and respected publication), who say that AC is a global warming factor. You can choose to believe or not.

I've read dozens of articles including one from an AC company that say the AC contributes to global warming. I have not read even one article that says it isn't.

If run your AC, can you criticize others who pollute? Is it "do as I say? Not as I do?"

I planted +30 trees on my lot, I consolidate my driving routes, I planted my yard with plants that neither need water nor fertilizer, I reuse - refuse - recycle, I drive like I'm in the historic Mobil Economy Run to get 100 extra miles per tankful, I buy as much local food as is available, I painted my roof bright white to reflect the heat, I air-dry laundry, I replaced my Edison light bulbs with LEDs, I choose not to use the AC, and more.

If everyone did that, we might buy more time before the climate change diminishes our food supply even further.

Won't you join me?

Bob

PS I live in Florida, and with the white roof and trees around the house (but not over the roof) it never-ever gets over 80 degrees F in the house. Using AC is an unnecessary use of power and if you are on the grid, your power is a pollutant contributing to global warming.


Every electrical device is a factor, but the critical aspect is the significance of the factor. Your computer add to human induced global warming, as does your stove, microwave, ceiling fan, refrigerator, freezer, heating system, television, etc.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:28 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Bob-a-rama wrote:
I was brought up with every bit helps. Weren't we supposed to do everything we can when we founded Earth Day? Think globally, act locally?

You can rationalize what you want. I gave sources, including one from Scientific American Magazine, (which is a scholarly and respected publication), who say that AC is a global warming factor. You can choose to believe or not.

I've read dozens of articles including one from an AC company that say the AC contributes to global warming. I have not read even one article that says it isn't.

If run your AC, can you criticize others who pollute? Is it "do as I say? Not as I do?"

I planted +30 trees on my lot, I consolidate my driving routes, I planted my yard with plants that neither need water nor fertilizer, I reuse - refuse - recycle, I drive like I'm in the historic Mobil Economy Run to get 100 extra miles per tankful, I buy as much local food as is available, I painted my roof bright white to reflect the heat, I air-dry laundry, I replaced my Edison light bulbs with LEDs, I choose not to use the AC, and more.

If everyone did that, we might buy more time before the climate change diminishes our food supply even further.

Won't you join me?

Bob

PS I live in Florida, and with the white roof and trees around the house (but not over the roof) it never-ever gets over 80 degrees F in the house. Using AC is an unnecessary use of power and if you are on the grid, your power is a pollutant contributing to global warming.


Every electrical device is a factor, but the critical aspect is the significance of the factor. Your computer add to human induced global warming, as does your stove, microwave, ceiling fan, refrigerator, freezer, heating system, television, etc.


True, but the amount your AC makes your power bill jump should be an indicator that it is using a lot more electricity than most everything else in your home. Many people around here say their electric bills double when they run the AC. That means the AC uses as much as the rest of the house combined.

Plus you need to cook food, you need to keep your food fresh, and so on. You don't need the AC. That's the point.

99% of the humans that have ever lived on the planet have not had AC. It's a luxury, and it is contributing to global warming.

But then, I guess some don't care about what they do, only what others do.

I have a neighbor that won't give up us 2 ton capacity 4-door pickup truck that hauls nothing more than a bag of groceries. Same thing. We all are supposed to do everything we can.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:43 pm 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
Bob-a-rama wrote:
I was brought up with every bit helps. Weren't we supposed to do everything we can when we founded Earth Day? Think globally, act locally?

You can rationalize what you want. I gave sources, including one from Scientific American Magazine, (which is a scholarly and respected publication), who say that AC is a global warming factor. You can choose to believe or not.

I've read dozens of articles including one from an AC company that say the AC contributes to global warming. I have not read even one article that says it isn't.

If run your AC, can you criticize others who pollute? Is it "do as I say? Not as I do?"

I planted +30 trees on my lot, I consolidate my driving routes, I planted my yard with plants that neither need water nor fertilizer, I reuse - refuse - recycle, I drive like I'm in the historic Mobil Economy Run to get 100 extra miles per tankful, I buy as much local food as is available, I painted my roof bright white to reflect the heat, I air-dry laundry, I replaced my Edison light bulbs with LEDs, I choose not to use the AC, and more.

If everyone did that, we might buy more time before the climate change diminishes our food supply even further.

Won't you join me?

Bob

PS I live in Florida, and with the white roof and trees around the house (but not over the roof) it never-ever gets over 80 degrees F in the house. Using AC is an unnecessary use of power and if you are on the grid, your power is a pollutant contributing to global warming.


Every electrical device is a factor, but the critical aspect is the significance of the factor. Your computer add to human induced global warming, as does your stove, microwave, ceiling fan, refrigerator, freezer, heating system, television, etc.


True, but the amount your AC makes your power bill jump should be an indicator that it is using a lot more electricity than most everything else in your home. Many people around here say their electric bills double when they run the AC. That means the AC uses as much as the rest of the house combined.

Plus you need to cook food, you need to keep your food fresh, and so on. You don't need the AC. That's the point.

99% of the humans that have ever lived on the planet have not had AC. It's a luxury, and it is contributing to global warming.

But then, I guess some don't care about what they do, only what others do.

I have a neighbor that won't give up us 2 ton capacity 4-door pickup truck that hauls nothing more than a bag of groceries. Same thing. We all are supposed to do everything we can.


You do know what anecdotal data gives you toward the total picture? Nothing. Data is useful in making decisions, but it has to be representative of the cohort being studied.

What "need" do the 1300+ people per year in the US dying from extreme heat have then?

Some statistical approaches estimate that more than 1,300 deaths per year in the United States are due to extreme heat, compared with about 600 deaths per year in the “underlying and contributing causes” data set shown in Figure 1.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:16 pm 
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Bob-a-rama wrote:
I was brought up with every bit helps.

well, I suppose killing off some weak humans is a tiny bit of an environmental improvement but not one I wish to make.


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