EnviroLink Forum

How do you know? Have you been there? I have. Janet Whatshername visited a mom and pop farmlet as far as I could see. They were, it seems, happy if not proud to show off what they had and did, and may have hoped the lady would understand. Instead, they got someone who has never been near a real adult duck, or on a small farm, as far as I could tell. A small farm with ducks, not geese; and small farms look after their animals because each one of them is live money. As is the case for big farms. Is feeding through a tube cruel? Given how a bird's esophagus can expand, not necessarily. Is it abnormal for a bird to "get stuffed"? As many a farmer who grows crops will tell you, a flock of geese especially in migration time will completely strip your land, fattening themselves for winter and for the long flights. OK, you do not like animals being used for human food. But unless you have conclusive evidence that the animals here are treated cruelly (in which case, you should notify the police), put up or shut up. Concern yourself with real animal cruelty, of which there is, unfortunately, all too much. As for foie gras, it is fabulous. And so organic....

And therefore, it could never be fabulous.
How do you know? Have you been there?

Have you ...

I have. Janet Whatshername visited a mom and pop farmlet as far as I could see. They were, it seems, happy if not proud to show off what they had and did, and may have hoped the lady would understand. Instead, they got someone who has never been near a real adult duck, or on a small farm, as far as I could tell. A small farm with ducks, not geese; and small farms look after their animals because each one of them is live money.
As is the case for big farms. Is feeding through a tube cruel?

Of course it is!

Given how a bird's esophagus can expand, not necessarily. Is it abnormal for a bird to "get stuffed"?

They know when it is okay, Not you.

As many a farmer who grows crops will tell you, a flock of geese especially in migration time will completely strip your land, fattening themselves for winter and for the long flights. OK, you do not like animals being used for human food. But unless you have conclusive evidence that the animals here are treated cruelly (in which case, you should notify the police), put up or shut up. Concern yourself with real animal cruelty, of which there is, unfortunately, all too much. As for foie gras, it is fabulous. And so organic....

Notify the police ... put up or shut up .... Is that your response to geese who are force fed in order to appease taste buds ...

I am so tired of hearing the "we used to think having slaves was OK, but now we no longer do, therefore... " and the associated claim of a "paradigm shift" blah blah- in this case , relating to getting foie gras in the traditional way. Or not being vegan. Slaves, last time I looked, were/are human beings, and therefore, slavery was/is a human right issue, and can never be an animal rights one, let alone be an argument about how we treat animals.

The question about foie gras is not: I don't like the look of it, and you should not eat/use animal products but: Can it be shown it is cruel? You have not advanced any arguments except that birds do not normally get their food through a tube. Sure, but is it cruel to feed them that way? If you can show proof of animal cruelty, then to go to the authorities is a moral and ethical obligation. You know perfectly well what I meant, I am sure - but since you cannot win the argument since only your opinion makes feeding birds "cruel", you try to weasel out of it. Why do you think even Californian authorities have overturned the ban? Do you really think they would have done so if large scale cruelty to animals were involved? You started it, the onus is on you to show I, foie gras producers, and Californian authorities are wrong. I do not have to show I am right, really (Logic 101 again).

And I repeat, foie gras is delicious...

Put up or shut up may sound offensive to you but it is no more than putting succinctly that unless you can prove your allegations, stop writing about them as if they were proven true.

Do you have evidence that feeding ducks or geese by tube is cruel? Or do you just think so? Note that that is the core question, not whether humans should eat pate foie. If it is cruel, animals should not be subjected to it. Period. And it should not be difficult to legislate against it if so.

Human beings are tube fed in many a hospital; not only are their esophagi far less elastic than birds', humans have strong gag reflexes as well. But is it painful? No. Does it hurt having a tube in? No. Is it therefore likely a bird's much more accommodating esophagus could not accommodate a tube inserted only at the top? I think I can make a guess...

Is is stressful? Well, birds do not swallow rubber hoses; but they do swallow big eels... if they link the tube and tasty food, as they will, is it still stressful? I can guess. What are your guesses? Stressed animals do not thrive, and may die or become sick. Would any farmer risk that in their animals, animals that are their livelihood? Especially on a small family farm as shown in your video? What do you think? Can you prove what you think? Otherwise... but let me not repeat myself.

And as for Ms Street Porter, her whole behaviour on the video shows she rarely if ever has visited a small farm.. well, has she?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

Sigh... here I am, arguing against your claims of cruelty by comparing tubing with human practices, and relating it to well-known biological bird facts, and you immediately shift the goalposts: humans are not in cages. How often does one have to argue that being in a cage, or in captivity, for an animal born into it, need not necessarily be cruel? Birds have no insight into being caged; humans have, because of their mental abilities, an insight into what it means to be caged. But we are *not* talking about caging, but about tube feeding. So please, can we stick to the point? I did have a look at that link you sent recently, which contains two very grainy black and white photographs of birds in cages, birds that in the top one look more like chickens... in other words, a classical example of its kind. No reference to what, when and where, but some AR organization still use pictures like that to pretend there is a problem where one has not existed for many decades, if there ever was one in the first place. You can a better picture, and in colour, with a cheap mobile phone! So why nota better one, actually showing the point you want to make? And just having writing accompanying said useless pictures that foie gras production is cruel does not make it so - neither does being French, or being you.

[quote="Cobie"]Put up or shut up may sound offensive to you but it is no more than putting succinctly that unless you can prove your allegations, stop writing about them as if they were proven true

"Put up or shut up" is a statement that is quite inexplicable. I would never say that to you. I am listening.

"Really you have evidence that feeding ducks or geese by tube is cruel? Or do you just think so?"

How does one conflate evidence and cruelty and tubes? How could one possibly manage that? is it not okay to rely on the evidence? If you were a duck, would you volunteer?

"Note that that is the core question, not whether humans should eat pate foie. If it is cruel, animals should not be subjected to it. Period. And it should not be difficult to legislate against it if so".

Cobie. How is it, in your mind, that because it is "legal" it is also "moral"? Have you no moral compass of your own? If you were that duck, would you volunteer to be caged? Is imprisonment not cruel, even for non-human species? Would you welcome a tube down your throat? Do not do to others .... all animals are sentient beings.

Human beings are tube fed in many a hospital; not only are their esophagi far less elastic than birds', humans have strong gag reflexes as well. But is it painful? No. Does it hurt having a tube in? No. Is it therefore likely a bird's much more accommodating esophagus could not accommodate a tube inserted only at the top? I think I can make a guess...

And when you put them in cages for the purpose of fois gras ..... especially when we have no need? Why?

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein