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EnviroLink Forum • View topic - Hello everyone and please help.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:38 am 
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This is Sandra, from the wide brown land downunder (that's Australia in case you didn't know). Looking forward to fascinating enviro-chats with other, "tree-huggers", "veg-it-arians", and (kindly) "carnivores".

Will someone please tell me how to register a catchy little non-de-plume like everyone else who (obviously of a higher order of intelligence) has alreadyworked it out.


Last edited by Sandra John on Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:04 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:21 pm 
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Dear Dim Lord :twisted: Shame on them, :roll: and you the heir apparent! It's a wicked world - oh!, but you knew that!

I think we might find common ground after all, on the truth theme - we don't need any more casualties in that particular theatre of war.

Philosophically and emotionally I'm probably with the angels. :D I can't remember when I didn't feel that we just ought to leave animals alone (unless there was a reciprocal relationship based on mutual need/respect or (dare I say it) love.

I believe our principle should be (this is a quote and I can't remember the source so can't credit it) "do nothing that is not in accord with reason and love". If we act according to that principle (difficult as it may be sometimes) I don't see that we can go far wrong.

On the other hand, not all think and feel alike. :( The sense of the interconnectedness of all things, on which compassion depends, is an evolving consciousness that is not yet well established; to say the least. As to reason (and intellectual rigour) on which truth depends; well, except to remark that it takes a pretty sound thrashing in most forums, I pass on in silence (for once - thank goodness!).

So, if we want to ensure that animals are not mistreated we will need laws that establish their status as "sentient beings" and their right to proper care. Such laws would certainly put an end to factory farms and, "mis-use upon the road", (Blake again) and blood, "sports", where humane methods of slaughter cannot be ensured.

On the other hand again, how many angels do you know who have just finished an infrequent and free range but all the same, chicken dinner? :shock: There you are, truth will out - in the course of time.

Speaking as, albeit, an occassional visitor, what is the view from Hades?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:17 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:35 am 
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Dear Lord of Darkness, I give you the point that we are animals - and that's a pretty fair start coming from an angel.


Angels believe that, for practical purposes, there is no need of a universal definition of reason (let alone of love); the finding of which, as every student of Plato knows, is indeed, "the rub". That is a game (and a very fine one too) for reason to play at leisure. We (rational animals) just need to consult our higher selves (angels) to know what is reasonable and loving in a given case - and that's because both conditions have something to do with fellow feeling and reciprocity; and you're not going to say, are you Dim Lord, that you don't know when you've got, "that loving feeling"?


Re Rights: I don't see how we can ensure protections for animals unless they are enshrined in laws that recognize an animal's right to protection. I mean a duty to provide implies a right to receive. But, I am happy to concede the word - just so the law protects animals from abuse and cruelty.

You are right of course (there's that word again!) there are different views on what is cruel. But consciousness does evolve. I mean, when I was a girl no-one thought it cruel to torment dancing bears or dunk witches. Rather good fun really (provided you weren't the bear or the witch) and to be honest, all this namby pamby Angel stuff takes a bit of getting used to and ..... uhhhh :? where was I? Oh, yes, the times; they are a changing.

One understands the frustration of holding a minority view that gets no hearing but (in an unprecedented act of agreement between the two worlds) Angels and Devils agree - it's a definite No! to lies and violence.

On the other hand - are you serious? Factory farms might provide for the animals' physical health (lack of disease) but that is surely only to maintain them as "productive units". Welfare means faring or living well; and nothing can be said to live well that is evolved to move freely in the natural environment but is kept in very close confinement under artificial conditions. Re waste - dung beetles are very effective and there are other methods of keeping paddocks clean.

Re Transport. Most transport conditions are O.K. I guess; for short journeys. So is strap hanging on the Japanese underground, I guess, for a half an hour or so. But, Dark Lord, have you tried it for a week in very hot weather without adequate food and water? That's different!

I share your ambivalence about some blood sports. The cultural aspects ae often very attractive. But when one considers the plight of the animal involved the feeling changes. I also agree we should try not to be judgmental. But it isn't necessary to be judgmental to object to something that you find morally offensive, and it isn't an adequate retort to say that it is sanctioned by tradition (we've always done that!).

Re nature: It's true that we are by nature omnivores - a carnivorous angel make you think though.

Re Hades. I gather the old place hasn't changed much, except that it sounds rather more uuuuuummm :oops: distracting

P.S. You must really tell me how to use the quotes machine - if you please.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:30 am 
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 Post subject: Return of the Angel
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:36 am 
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Greetings and Salutation to your Satanic Majestry. :evil: I have returned with answers to all your questions. :lol:

Re: proving the assumption that love is present in others - human or animal. You are probably right. A rational proof is difficult to find. That is because love is an emotion and, "the heart has reasons that, reason knows not of": as do the senses. In any case, very few things are proved to reason as for instance I cannot prove that you (or indeed, I exist. Yet, I seem to feel very sure of that ... somehow. :)

Re: Rights. It's a logical (and perhaps a legal?) point. If people are obliged to take certain measures to protect or to care for animals then, by that very fact, the animals acquire a right to that care and protection. But, I give you the point. Let's by all means speak of obligations to protect or care for animals Then as you suggest, the important question is who is obliged to do what, and perhaps, why?

Re: Pets. No. I don't believe there should be no pets. Nor do I think that domestic animals would necessarily be better off in the wild. I was referring to keeping animals in cages too small for them to move in and denying them any semblance of normal animal life. Not the same thing really.

Re: Transportation. Food and water. Yes, vast generalisation. Not meant quite literally. I was trying for a graphic analogy. But, literally. Hundreds of thousands of Australian sheep and cattle have died protracted deaths in squalid conditions on board ships plying from Australia to the Middle East over the past ten years or so. There is sufficient evidence to justify the conclusion that all these animals died of exhaustion, infection, exposure, asphixiation or starvation (unable to adapt to pellets) and no-one troubles to deny it. Many are disembarked in very poor condition and die shortly thereafter in holding yards. Many are disembarked lame, injured or blind (from the pellet dust). No-one troubles to deny that either. I do not know to what recent events you refer. I do know that it isn't animal liberationists who put these animals on these ships or run the ships or, in the case of the Cormo express, prevented their unloading.

Re: Forcing change. Yes that's a difficult one. Impossible to impose ethical change. Use of force highly undesirable. On the other hand, forceful intervention in a situation of abuse, by the strong, in order to protect the weak has generally (I think rightly) been considered a moral duty. One assumes it is agreed that there is a difference between force and violence (e.g. amputating a gangrenous limb in the face of protests by a delerius patient who would otherwise die of it is, I suppose, force. Chopping off the leg of your pet dog for, "fun", is I should say, (extreme) violence.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:10 am 
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