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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.



Is this guy an example of a coward, or an example of on how not to commit suicide? A 12Ga, with 00 buck would have done the job.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:25 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.



Is this guy an example of a coward, or an example of on how not to commit suicide? A 12Ga, with 00 buck would have done the job.


He was a coward and the 20 ga would have been sufficient had the barrel not been so long. To reach the trigger probably caused there to be enough of an angle to just take out one side of his jaw and the portion of the skull to which it mounted or he pulled away ..... no way to know for sure. A 12 ga may or may not have killed him given the spread would not have been much that close to the barrel and the 20 ga. blew most everything in it path away.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:16 am 
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I logged on intending to continue the discussion with Wayne about GMO's .... and I would like to continue that discussion on a very limited time alowance which is short these days. But the time allottment is better spent here ....

Wow you guys .... what a heavy topic! I am blown away by the amount of suffering you've both experienced, both physical and emotional. But of course, physical suffering begets emotional suffering. I recently read a study that the brain does not differentiate because emotional suffering ends up registering as physical. I will of course find that study if you want it. A broken heart is registered in the same way as a broken arm or leg .....

Back to being blown away ..... I am!

I realize that I live in a bubble of sorts as I've never experienced much suffering in my life, not even a broken bone, ...not even child birth. I experienced dire poverty for about 4 months at one time which lead to some weight loss and stress/worry ..... and so I now empathize with the homeless and hungry and regularly contribute to food bank donations, etc. But only because I have become sensitized to the suffering of the homelless and hungry.

There is the archetype of the "wounded healer" ..... meaning that which is hurt .... heals. I have understood that people who have suffered gain an understanding of those who suffer. Waiters and waitresses tend to give larger tips, for example. (perhaps an insignificant example in light of much larger examples of suffering).


Mothy, although your question was originally addressed to Wayne ..... and although Siber has responded by relating an incredible story of suffering .... a rare story which most of us have probably not experienced ... and while Wayne has responded with his own incredible story of suffering. Geez you guys! And Mothy, I'm sure you have your own story which is probably more psychological/emotional than it is the raw experience of physical and therefore emotional pain ... And yet you seem to suffer the most .... maybe.

I would still like to add that suicide is both noble and realistic as well as tragic and avoidable. But the idea of morality is just an idea. We made it up. There is not an overseer who judges such mattters. There is, in my mind, a sanctity in life which is up to us to discover and that sanctity is boundless and infinite and will probably not be found in any religion.

And I feel as if I have crashed a topic. I have no "real" experience of suffering. Yet, I wonder how I can empathize with the cruelty hoisted upon animals and the poeple of Iraq and soon to be Iran ..... as well as the Palestinians and the Americans ...... in privatized prisons, etc., without ever having broken a bone?

Somehow the healer has been wounded anyway ..... While still totally amazed by these stories of suffering. I have a renewed sense of empathy and I may just speak more softly from now on ....

We need to look after each other and we need to elect governments who take this into account ...... if we need to elect governments at all and I guess we do at our present level of understanding/evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:36 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.



Is this guy an example of a coward, or an example of on how not to commit suicide? A 12Ga, with 00 buck would have done the job.


He was a coward and the 20 ga would have been sufficient had the barrel not been so long. To reach the trigger probably caused there to be enough of an angle to just take out one side of his jaw and the portion of the skull to which it mounted or he pulled away ..... no way to know for sure. A 12 ga may or may not have killed him given the spread would not have been much that close to the barrel and the 20 ga. blew most everything in it path away.


Ahhhh Wayne. Come back to us. He was neither a coward nor an unskilled shooter. You know, this wasn't the question ..... We don't really want to know the way he 'coulda dun it'.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:56 am 
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"The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before."

I appreciate your point here and yet, suicide is a cultural reality as well ---- sometimes even sanctioned and applauded as in the Japanese suicide fighters ---- the kamakazi of WW2. Then we have the Muslim jihadists and we also have the American youth who we know may not come back alive. That last example is not pure suicide but is akin. I cannot imagine being a parent and allowing a child to enlist.

Suicide is not normally encouraged and is even actively discouraged except when ideology is concerned .... and spreading democracy is an example of that. We are taught to send our young out. We have the propoganda even in schools. So shameful really. It's like having McDonalds menu advertised in hospitals. Selling war to chldren is like selling a Big Mac to a heart patient.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:47 am 
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Thanks for your input and viewpoint animal-friendly.....read them carefully Wayne ;-)

I'm doing well, yes, I still have pain almost every day but, it is currently being handled with narcotics, that I am trying to wean off of but.....I still find joy in every day and more importantly, I am able to find humor all over the place. In real life with the people, family, friends and co-workers, who I appreciate even more lately, and I find humor on the internet....thanks Wayne ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:47 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I know there is emotional pain as well as physical pain, which might be some justification in the case of debilitating long term illness, but not for those who just have a messed up life. +

I knew a guy many years ago who had a lot of personal problems and felt that he could not handle them. His solution was to kill himself by sticking the barrel of a 20 ga. shotgun into his mouth and pulling the trigger. When he got out of the hospital he still had all of the previous personal problems along with some hefty medical bills, and some new personal problems resulting from the lack of a lower jaw.

The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before.



Is this guy an example of a coward, or an example of on how not to commit suicide? A 12Ga, with 00 buck would have done the job.


He was a coward and the 20 ga would have been sufficient had the barrel not been so long. To reach the trigger probably caused there to be enough of an angle to just take out one side of his jaw and the portion of the skull to which it mounted or he pulled away ..... no way to know for sure. A 12 ga may or may not have killed him given the spread would not have been much that close to the barrel and the 20 ga. blew most everything in it path away.


animal-friendly wrote:
Ahhhh Wayne. Come back to us. He was neither a coward nor an unskilled shooter. You know, this wasn't the question ..... We don't really want to know the way he 'coulda dun it'.


The problem with suicide in this case is that he did not complete it even after he added all of the new personal problems and there was an indivation he may have had some change of mind either by instinct or design that cause his attempt to fail. I take that as a sign that he really did not want to end his life.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:52 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
"The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before."

I appreciate your point here and yet, suicide is a cultural reality as well ---- sometimes even sanctioned and applauded as in the Japanese suicide fighters ---- the kamakazi of WW2. Then we have the Muslim jihadists and we also have the American youth who we know may not come back alive.


The goal is not to commit suicide but to kill the enemy of that state or religion. It is the attack of last resort and of desparation. It is a different tack all together from the suicide being discussed here. In the case of the military the goal is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:24 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
animal-friendly wrote:
"The last time I saw him he was still walking around with what amounted to half a roll of toilet paper stuck in his mouth to kep him from drooling all over his shirt. He could no longer talk but communicated by writing on a pad. He understood what harrm he did to his family and friends and still only screwed up his life more. He said that he regreted what he had done and would never think that was an answer ever again even though he had more pain and suffering than before."

I appreciate your point here and yet, suicide is a cultural reality as well ---- sometimes even sanctioned and applauded as in the Japanese suicide fighters ---- the kamakazi of WW2. Then we have the Muslim jihadists and we also have the American youth who we know may not come back alive.


The goal is not to commit suicide but to kill the enemy of that state or religion. It is the attack of last resort and of desparation. It is a different tack all together from the suicide being discussed here. In the case of the military the goal is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.


People end their lives for different reasons. Sometimes it is physical or emotional pain and one canot be faulted over the other. But if and when one ends their life for either religious or national ideology ... yes, that is really quite delusional. I'm not blaming these people ... because the mind is the trickiest territory of all.


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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:18 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.


I guess that's one way to put it. I see them as indication that a problem isn't being dealt with effectively.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:16 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.


But are these not also problems in children, who have not been alive for way too long?

There are articles on juvenile depression, anxiety disorder, and panic disorder if you need that information.


http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0101/p73.html

Major depression affects 3 to 5 percent of children and adolescents. Depression negatively impacts growth and development, school performance, and peer or family relationships and may lead to suicide. Biomedical and psychosocial risk factors include a family history of depression, female sex, childhood abuse or neglect, stressful life events, and chronic illness.

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.


But are these not also problems in children, who have not been alive for way too long?

There are articles on juvenile depression, anxiety disorder, and panic disorder if you need that information.


http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0101/p73.html

Major depression affects 3 to 5 percent of children and adolescents. Depression negatively impacts growth and development, school performance, and peer or family relationships and may lead to suicide. Biomedical and psychosocial risk factors include a family history of depression, female sex, childhood abuse or neglect, stressful life events, and chronic illness.


Well, golly gee Wayne, thanks, but why in the world would you think I have a need for them....I'm an empty nester. Both my kids are pretty darned well adjusted in spite of me(one being married, steady job, cute lil girl of her own, and my boy is finishing his first year at IU studying Chinese)

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Fosgate wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.


I guess that's one way to put it. I see them as indication that a problem isn't being dealt with effectively.


I saw that on Facebook, you know, where someone wanted you to post that to your wall for a day? I didn't but thought I would throw it out here for shits and giggles ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: On suicide.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:45 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
SiberD wrote:
Anxiety, depression, and panic attacks are not a sign of weakness. They are signs of having tried to remain strong for way too long.


But are these not also problems in children, who have not been alive for way too long?

There are articles on juvenile depression, anxiety disorder, and panic disorder if you need that information.


http://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0101/p73.html

Major depression affects 3 to 5 percent of children and adolescents. Depression negatively impacts growth and development, school performance, and peer or family relationships and may lead to suicide. Biomedical and psychosocial risk factors include a family history of depression, female sex, childhood abuse or neglect, stressful life events, and chronic illness.


Well, golly gee Wayne, thanks, but why in the world would you think I have a need for them....I'm an empty nester. Both my kids are pretty darned well adjusted in spite of me(one being married, steady job, cute lil girl of her own, and my boy is finishing his first year at IU studying Chinese)


I can understand not wanting to have actual information on such things in favor of assumptions picked up in random places. :mrgreen:

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