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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:07 pm 
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tommee wrote:
Ann Vole wrote:
Up until this point, vivisection had not entered the discussion.


Yes it was. Although the word vivisection was not used.


No, if the word vivisection was not used it was not part of the discussion as research is not vivisection.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:04 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:

No, if the word vivisection was not used it was not part of the discussion as research is not vivisection.


"The nearly 1,000 government owned chimpanzees are currently housed in five U.S. laboratories. While most of them are not being used in active experiments, they have been kept confined in cages at the labs, sometimes for decades, on the misguided belief by a few scientists that they may be needed for some catastrophic research in the future."

"Chimpanzees are no longer needed for research, yet we remain the only country besides Gabon to continue holding these animals in laboratories as possible subjects for invasive research," said Sen. Sanders. "I believe it is time to release these animals from the laboratories where they are currently housed and allow them to live in humane sanctuaries – a move that would create a sizeable savings to taxpayers."


"If the lab has chimps it wants for experimental purposes it will need to find the money to house them. If they are not needed then the accounts department will ask what they are doing with them?

Scientists are generally a decent bunch, particularly those in the bio-science fields. If there are chimps being used to further the knowleg of say Altzimer's disease(sorry about my speeelling) then the staff will do what is needed to get that information, sod the chimps. But if they are not needed then the scientists are as soppy as the rest of us and would not keep these animals in poor conditions just for the sake of it."

"The UK don't test on chimps" :-k

"Are you sure?

I was under the impression that if a scientist wanted to use a specific animal for a medical experiment then provided the ethics committee agreed that it was apropriate and the budget was there he could do so without being restricted by blancket banns from central government."

says it all really.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:15 am 
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tommee wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:

No, if the word vivisection was not used it was not part of the discussion as research is not vivisection.


"The nearly 1,000 government owned chimpanzees are currently housed in five U.S. laboratories. While most of them are not being used in active experiments, they have been kept confined in cages at the labs, sometimes for decades, on the misguided belief by a few scientists that they may be needed for some catastrophic research in the future."

"Chimpanzees are no longer needed for research, yet we remain the only country besides Gabon to continue holding these animals in laboratories as possible subjects for invasive research," said Sen. Sanders. "I believe it is time to release these animals from the laboratories where they are currently housed and allow them to live in humane sanctuaries – a move that would create a sizeable savings to taxpayers."


"If the lab has chimps it wants for experimental purposes it will need to find the money to house them. If they are not needed then the accounts department will ask what they are doing with them?

Scientists are generally a decent bunch, particularly those in the bio-science fields. If there are chimps being used to further the knowleg of say Altzimer's disease(sorry about my speeelling) then the staff will do what is needed to get that information, sod the chimps. But if they are not needed then the scientists are as soppy as the rest of us and would not keep these animals in poor conditions just for the sake of it."

"The UK don't test on chimps" :-k

"Are you sure?

I was under the impression that if a scientist wanted to use a specific animal for a medical experiment then provided the ethics committee agreed that it was apropriate and the budget was there he could do so without being restricted by blancket banns from central government."

says it all really.



Says what? That vivisection was not mentioned at all? That medical research is not vivisection? What?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:16 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
tommee wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:


The first paper was from 2011 and the second from 2012. The technology is very current.


Immunol Rev. 2011 Jan;239(1):99-108. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-065X.2010.00977.x.

Article Date: 07 Jan 2012 - 0:00 PST


The ChAd3, chimpanzee adenovirus 3 was not developed by them and has been around for many years. They modifies the vaccine and thier work is done in a test tube..

So where is all this overseas testing on chimps contracted from the UK?


The specific modified vaccine was tested on chimp models according to the previous paper quoted on the subject.

Encouraging efficacy data have been obtained in the hepatitis C virus (HCV) chimpanzee model using prophylactic vaccines comprising adjuvanted recombinant envelope gpE1/gpE2 glycoproteins or prime/boost immunization regimens using defective adenoviruses and plasmid DNA expressing non-structural genes. While usually not resulting in sterilizing immunity after experimental challenge, the progression to chronic, persistent infection (which is responsible for HCV-associated pathogenicity in human) is inhibited. These and other vaccine candidates are in clinical development for both prophylactic as well as possible therapeutic applications.

<snip>

Given that other vaccines tested in the chimpanzee model may be possibly increasing the rate of chronicity, it is very important that this model continues to be available and used prior to initiation of clinical development.


The vaccines have already been developed years ago, Merck laboratories are just one example.
ChAd3, chimpanzee adenovirus 3 has many strings to it's bow when the DNA is manipulated like what was done in this case..

No chimps were used in the experiment, fact is it would be illegal for them to do so, cloned ChAd3 was used :-


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:18 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
tommee wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:

No, if the word vivisection was not used it was not part of the discussion as research is not vivisection.


"The nearly 1,000 government owned chimpanzees are currently housed in five U.S. laboratories. While most of them are not being used in active experiments, they have been kept confined in cages at the labs, sometimes for decades, on the misguided belief by a few scientists that they may be needed for some catastrophic research in the future."

"Chimpanzees are no longer needed for research, yet we remain the only country besides Gabon to continue holding these animals in laboratories as possible subjects for invasive research," said Sen. Sanders. "I believe it is time to release these animals from the laboratories where they are currently housed and allow them to live in humane sanctuaries – a move that would create a sizeable savings to taxpayers."


"If the lab has chimps it wants for experimental purposes it will need to find the money to house them. If they are not needed then the accounts department will ask what they are doing with them?

Scientists are generally a decent bunch, particularly those in the bio-science fields. If there are chimps being used to further the knowleg of say Altzimer's disease(sorry about my speeelling) then the staff will do what is needed to get that information, sod the chimps. But if they are not needed then the scientists are as soppy as the rest of us and would not keep these animals in poor conditions just for the sake of it."

"The UK don't test on chimps" :-k

"Are you sure?

I was under the impression that if a scientist wanted to use a specific animal for a medical experiment then provided the ethics committee agreed that it was apropriate and the budget was there he could do so without being restricted by blancket banns from central government."

says it all really.



Says what? That vivisection was not mentioned at all? That medical research is not vivisection? What?


It says that Altzimer's disease is research using animals, ie: vivisection same for medical research.

Stop with the idiotic rants.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:23 am 
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http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110615/ ... 4268a.html

Opponents of chimp research have painted the United States as an outlier for continuing to allow such experiments. That charge irks the directors of the chimpanzee centres. Responding to a request from Nature, the directors catalogued 27 chimpanzee studies carried out at their centres by foreign companies or scientists since 2005.

"The Europeans did not ban their companies from coming to the United States," says John VandeBerg, director of the Southwest National Primate Research Centre in San Antonio, Texas, another of the centres that conducts chimp research. "And I can assure you they are not going to ban the importation of drugs into their countries that are developed using chimpanzees."

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:36 am 
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Perhaps you believe "invasive" is the same as vivisection? No, vivisection would be invasive but invasive is not vivisection.

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... an-on.html

A key issue is the definition of "invasive." The bill would explicitly bar any research that "may cause death, bodily injury, pain, distress, fear, injury or trauma."

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:52 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
tommee wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:


The first paper was from 2011 and the second from 2012. The technology is very current.


Immunol Rev. 2011 Jan;239(1):99-108. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-065X.2010.00977.x.

Article Date: 07 Jan 2012 - 0:00 PST


The ChAd3, chimpanzee adenovirus 3 was not developed by them and has been around for many years. They modifies the vaccine and thier work is done in a test tube..

So where is all this overseas testing on chimps contracted from the UK?


The specific modified vaccine was tested on chimp models according to the previous paper quoted on the subject.

Encouraging efficacy data have been obtained in the hepatitis C virus (HCV) chimpanzee model using prophylactic vaccines comprising adjuvanted recombinant envelope gpE1/gpE2 glycoproteins or prime/boost immunization regimens using defective adenoviruses and plasmid DNA expressing non-structural genes. While usually not resulting in sterilizing immunity after experimental challenge, the progression to chronic, persistent infection (which is responsible for HCV-associated pathogenicity in human) is inhibited. These and other vaccine candidates are in clinical development for both prophylactic as well as possible therapeutic applications.

<snip>

Given that other vaccines tested in the chimpanzee model may be possibly increasing the rate of chronicity, it is very important that this model continues to be available and used prior to initiation of clinical development.


tommee wrote:
The vaccines have already been developed years ago, Merck laboratories are just one example.


WHAT?! There is no vaccine for Hep C and it has not been developed since the UK stopped using chimps in research. It is a new vaccine based on the testing in the papers I referenced.

Quote:
ChAd3, chimpanzee adenovirus 3 has many strings to it's bow when the DNA is manipulated like what was done in this case..


HUH?

Quote:
No chimps were used in the experiment, fact is it would be illegal for them to do so, cloned ChAd3 was used :-


The chimps outside the UK were used to test the vaccine prior to the testing in the UK as it is not illegal to use chimps for testing elsewhere and use the data in the UK. That is why the paper on the clinical trials for this vaccine was published a year later than the paper on the chimp testing.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:59 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
tommee wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:

No, if the word vivisection was not used it was not part of the discussion as research is not vivisection.


"The nearly 1,000 government owned chimpanzees are currently housed in five U.S. laboratories. While most of them are not being used in active experiments, they have been kept confined in cages at the labs, sometimes for decades, on the misguided belief by a few scientists that they may be needed for some catastrophic research in the future."

"Chimpanzees are no longer needed for research, yet we remain the only country besides Gabon to continue holding these animals in laboratories as possible subjects for invasive research," said Sen. Sanders. "I believe it is time to release these animals from the laboratories where they are currently housed and allow them to live in humane sanctuaries – a move that would create a sizeable savings to taxpayers."


"If the lab has chimps it wants for experimental purposes it will need to find the money to house them. If they are not needed then the accounts department will ask what they are doing with them?

Scientists are generally a decent bunch, particularly those in the bio-science fields. If there are chimps being used to further the knowleg of say Altzimer's disease(sorry about my speeelling) then the staff will do what is needed to get that information, sod the chimps. But if they are not needed then the scientists are as soppy as the rest of us and would not keep these animals in poor conditions just for the sake of it."

"The UK don't test on chimps" :-k

"Are you sure?

I was under the impression that if a scientist wanted to use a specific animal for a medical experiment then provided the ethics committee agreed that it was apropriate and the budget was there he could do so without being restricted by blancket banns from central government."

says it all really.



Says what? That vivisection was not mentioned at all? That medical research is not vivisection? What?


tommee wrote:
It says that Altzimer's disease is research using animals, ie: vivisection same for medical research.

Stop with the idiotic rants.


No, vivisection is not the same as medical testing, but that is the redefinition presented by some and it seems accepted by those who are ignorant of the actual definition. I do not grasp your jump in logic connecting vivsection to medical research because "It says that Altzimer's disease is research using animals"

Vivisection is the cutting into a living creature for research.

Definition of VIVISECTION
: the cutting of or operation on a living animal usually for physiological or pathological investigation

vivisection
surgical procedures performed upon a living animal for purpose of physiological or pathological investigation. It is illegal in most countries to perform such experiments without a license, without proper anesthesia or without all measures necessary to prevent cruelty to the experimental animal.

vivisection (viˈ·v·sekˑ·shn),
n the dissection of living animals to view anatomic systems.

vivisection [viv″ĭ-sek´shun]
surgical procedures performed upon a living animal for purpose of physiologic or pathologic investigation.

vivisection
[viv′əsek′shən]
Etymology: L, vivus, alive, secare, to cut
the performance of surgical operations on living animals, particularly experimental surgery for the purpose of

viv·i·sec·tion (vv-skshn, vv-sk-)
n.
The act or practice of cutting into or performing surgery on living animals for the purpose of scientific research.

vivisection /vivi·sec·tion/ (viv″ĭ-sek´shun) surgical procedures performed upon a living animal for purpose of physiologic or pathologic investigation.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:04 am 
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More idiotic ranting from wayne =D>


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:18 am 
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tommee wrote:
More idiotic ranting from wayne =D>



If you redefine "factual evidence" as "idiotic ranting" that would be accurate.

Just name calling really builds credibility ( NOT!) and shows you have run out of any factual options with which to hold a discussion.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:26 am 
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Still trying to figure your leap from Alzheimer's research making all medical research the same as vivisection and still failing to see the connection.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/ ... 616&page=1

To test this theory, Rosen and her colleagues took PIB, widely used in clinical trials to diagnose Alzheimer's. PIB binds to amyloid deposits in live human brains, thus "lighting up" the plaques on positron-emission tomography (PET) scans.

They used PIB in brain tissue from nine deceased rhesus monkeys, six deceased squirrel monkeys, three deceased chimpanzees, nine deceased humans with end-stage Alzheimer's and three deceased older but healthy humans.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:58 am 
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tommee wrote:
More idiotic ranting from wayne =D>
it is obvious you never read a word of Wayne's very scientific and logical response which includes quotes from reputable sources like the dictionary.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:09 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Perhaps you believe "invasive" is the same as vivisection? No, vivisection would be invasive but invasive is not vivisection.

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... an-on.html

A key issue is the definition of "invasive." The bill would explicitly bar any research that "may cause death, bodily injury, pain, distress, fear, injury or trauma."


The issue was defined by the UK government, they banned the practise of using higher primates.

Medical experiments can come in different forms we all know this even vivisection, well for them that are not narrow minded. The ban quoted takes in research including vivisection.

#-o


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:11 am 
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Wayne Stollings wrote:
Still trying to figure your leap from Alzheimer's research making all medical research the same as vivisection and still failing to see the connection.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/ ... 616&page=1

To test this theory, Rosen and her colleagues took PIB, widely used in clinical trials to diagnose Alzheimer's. PIB binds to amyloid deposits in live human brains, thus "lighting up" the plaques on positron-emission tomography (PET) scans.

They used PIB in brain tissue from nine deceased rhesus monkeys, six deceased squirrel monkeys, three deceased chimpanzees, nine deceased humans with end-stage Alzheimer's and three deceased older but healthy humans.



Who said all research was vivisection? Not I you are just pissing up my back that's all that's going on here.


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