EnviroLink Forum

I just found these two graphs on sea ice extent that do not show any signs of wavering. So, what are the AGW people saying when talking about melting caps?

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/char ... rence.html

I don't understand, did you actually bother to look at the graph for the arctic? It shows a trend and the record low is in 08 by some margin which is the last year on the graph. And why stop at 08 anyway?

You really need to look much more closely to the Arctic graph as there is a clear decline in the maximum and minimum valuses throughout the period.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

This shows the trend as of 2004, which has not improved since then as we have set a new record low this year.

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

I see... It just wasn't emphasized very well by that graph; it is too big of a graph to show much decline. Just by looking at that graph, the decline looks like an error margin almost.

looks like a 13% reduction over 30 years (2/15) which is very significant for something that varies over an interglacial period of tens of thousands of years.

.
Yes, the scale of a graph can be misleading, which is why it is hard to "eyeball" trends accurately. The better way is to use a statistical program to check the trend

_________________
With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none”
Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

The ice in your cup of ice tea will not change the level of the ice tea when it melts. The ice that is not in the ocean such as glaciers and the ice on the lands of Antarctica and Greenland WILL add to the height of the oceans. The big thing about the arctic ice is it is the first indication that the world is getting warmer but also that it is like a reflector keeping the sun out of the water. More sun means more warming of the globe. You will not see waves of water but when there is a storm, the highest point of the water will be higher so buildings and dykes that used to survive the storms will start to fail from flooding.

Maybe, but the warm(comparitively) water of an ice free Arctic ocean will cause lots more snow fall on Greenland.

Also there should be expected to be more snow fall over the northern tundra and forrest regions. The last ice age may well of started like this. If there is a thick enough snow covering over the northj of the continents then perhaps snow can survive the summer....

With the much higher temperatures at higher latitudes the postulated extra snow in Greenland will melt quickly. The tundra methane releases are going up fast and have been at the tipping point of being self releasing since 2009. The open ocean warming increase is also approaching a self sustaining tipping point. With double the carbon in the tundra methane deposits and a comparable amount in the warming ocean deposits, the future with business as usual is thermageddon for future survivors.
The ice age cycle will be broken for 200K years, until re-sequestration of the carbon is complete. The temperature was going down and the snow would have built up if it weren't for human green house gas production. If Yellowstone blows before probable, then it could possibly restart the cycle.

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

On the denialists grabbing at the straw of Antarctic ice; "This is a claim the climate contrarians tend to make almost every time Arctic sea ice sets a record or near-record low. In reality, the trends in Antarctic sea ice are pretty small compared to what’s happening in the Arctic."
from skeptical science

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Johhny you wouldn't happen to have been known as "Ice Czar" on another board in the past?

_________________
Potato chip enthusiast.

No, but I often agreed with him. I was mgopilot then Johnny Electriglide, kicked off for being politically incorrect.
here is a great article with links;
http://www.skepticalscience.com/compreh ... ation.html

_________________
"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.
“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein