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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:31 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
When I was younger I took a hunter safety course and before I got my concealed carry permit I was required to take a class and show my ability to shoot. When I applied for my drivers license I had to pass a written test and show my ability to handle a car safely. If we carry this to the concept of gun purchase we could make a small difference in keeping people from doing something like we saw in Sandy Hook school. I have no problem with a similar program of license for gun ownership as in the concealed carry permit program. A background check, which is done for purchase now, but the check included medical records which indicate whether there are any known problems or concerns other than with the law. A safety program and a final test that included shooting would help ensure those who own guns can safely use them.

Of course, it does not preclude those who steal guns or acquire them through illegal means from getting them. It does not preclude the relative of a legal gun owner from gaining access to the guns either. Nothing will prevent the access to a gun because one can build thier own from scratch if one desires and has a bit of mechanical knowledge, but it will give a measure of reasonable checks to protect everyone, including those who buy guns and do not use them safely.



Yes. it's true that nothing will preclude those who want a gun from getting one, but if one has to build one .... well that in itself is a deterrent. Stealing one is as well. Unfortunately, the shooter had a mom who was a collector and gun enthusiast and "hobbyist" with quite a collection. It was no problem for him to acquire the tool he needed.


So, there is a proliferation of guns in the US that many other countries do not have to deal with, but there is also the fact of a tense society dealing with mental illness .... with more easy access to guns than to mental health. And locking even young ones in prison is not a very humane or creative solution.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archiv ... zas-mother


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:06 am 
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And then the issue of guns ... and gun "control" is unique to the US. Most countries are not having this discussion because NO country has an amnedmet like the 2nd .... which might need amending.

Callaway writes "We cling to our legal rights to guns as a matter of pride in our heritage, as a point of being able to protect ourselves as we have through our history. But we don't see the collective price of our stubbornness, either in lost lives or in how the rest of the world perceives us."

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/world/as-amer ... ome&s=home

I lived in the US for a year, and during that year I got to see what a bubble it is. If you are there, there is nowhere else. You get so caught up in "life in america" that you really must leave the country to believe that any other country exists. You cannot simply vacation .... or read travel books .... you simply have to get out. The issue of guns, violence, mental illness, etc., is very, very unique to the US. But you would not realize this unless you get out of that particular conditioning. The rest of the world shakes their head.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:13 am 
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SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
I think the prison school approach is long over due. We need to build schools more like bunkers and add bullet resistent glass to prevent snipers. The buses could be fitted with the same glass with kevlar armor and maybe even add armed guards to ride them. Then we could work on the shopping malls to make them more defensible too.


Wayne, what I described would have worked to prevent what happened last week and at reasonable costs. Kevlar armor and armed guards, not so much. Your idea is........



SiberD wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
There was a security door, which would not have held up to the gunman had he used the weapons on it, that was part of the systme that required photo identification to be presented to the office staff. Once the glass was shattered the door could be opened by reaching through. An armed guard was already outgunned from the onset and in order to respond to the entrance would have to expose themselves to fire by a superior selection of firepower. Your idea would have had a minimal effect on the incident, just as the normal security procedures impact was minimal.


And you call that a security system? Yeah, a security door...with a plate glass window in it or next to it that can be easily broken. Why have a security door then?


Didn't you just indicate the use of Kevlar armor, armed guards and bullet resistant glass was not a reasonable cost? You remind me of a gun store owner once who spent good money for a high security door that could not easily be breached. It was still intact after they cleaned him out of guns. They went through the wall with ease and ignored the security. The only way is for total security unless you are just doing it for show or to feel good about doing something.


Quote:
Photo identification presented to the office staff. That should be done from the entrance via cameras and microphones, not in the office after the whacko is in the building.


And the quality of this equipment that can get a good image from the ID is going to be reasonably priced? Again, it would only work against people not intent on getting in to do harm.

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And as soon as a door or window is breached the whole school should be in lock down mode including the door locks on the classrooms I described.


An automatic or manual system? Neither would be inexpensive given all of the safety interlocks. The times between classes could lock children out, for example.

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And I agree, an armed guard with a six shot wheel gun, or even a higher capacity semi-auto is indeed outgunned. Why wouldn't you arm them with at least an AR15 and high capacity semi-auto side arm?


That would be sure to make the children and parents feel safe wouldn't it? A heavily armed guard in every school so gun owners would not be inconvenienced. Great PR move for removal of guns. Of course the cost just went up more in the process.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:16 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
Wayne Stollings wrote:
When I was younger I took a hunter safety course and before I got my concealed carry permit I was required to take a class and show my ability to shoot. When I applied for my drivers license I had to pass a written test and show my ability to handle a car safely. If we carry this to the concept of gun purchase we could make a small difference in keeping people from doing something like we saw in Sandy Hook school. I have no problem with a similar program of license for gun ownership as in the concealed carry permit program. A background check, which is done for purchase now, but the check included medical records which indicate whether there are any known problems or concerns other than with the law. A safety program and a final test that included shooting would help ensure those who own guns can safely use them.

Of course, it does not preclude those who steal guns or acquire them through illegal means from getting them. It does not preclude the relative of a legal gun owner from gaining access to the guns either. Nothing will prevent the access to a gun because one can build thier own from scratch if one desires and has a bit of mechanical knowledge, but it will give a measure of reasonable checks to protect everyone, including those who buy guns and do not use them safely.



Yes. it's true that nothing will preclude those who want a gun from getting one, but if one has to build one .... well that in itself is a deterrent. Stealing one is as well. Unfortunately, the shooter had a mom who was a collector and gun enthusiast and "hobbyist" with quite a collection. It was no problem for him to acquire the tool he needed.


This all seems to have been legal in both the letter and intent of the law, which is why the gun lobby is going to take a big hit on legislation. The current system did not work, so there will have to be something new done and there will be support for change after this.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:22 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
And then the issue of guns ... and gun "control" is unique to the US. Most countries are not having this discussion because NO country has an amnedmet like the 2nd .... which might need amending.

Callaway writes "We cling to our legal rights to guns as a matter of pride in our heritage, as a point of being able to protect ourselves as we have through our history. But we don't see the collective price of our stubbornness, either in lost lives or in how the rest of the world perceives us."

http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/world/as-amer ... ome&s=home

I lived in the US for a year, and during that year I got to see what a bubble it is. If you are there, there is nowhere else. You get so caught up in "life in america" that you really must leave the country to believe that any other country exists. You cannot simply vacation .... or read travel books .... you simply have to get out. The issue of guns, violence, mental illness, etc., is very, very unique to the US. But you would not realize this unless you get out of that particular conditioning. The rest of the world shakes their head.


Yes, there are many issues we as a nation tend to ignore both internally and internationally that seem willfully ignorant.

The old joke about an average American believing all that is needed to communicate with other nationalities is for them to learn English is not really a joke.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Didn't you just indicate the use of Kevlar armor, armed guards and bullet resistant glass was not a reasonable cost? You remind me of a gun store owner once who spent good money for a high security door that could not easily be breached. It was still intact after they cleaned him out of guns. They went through the wall with ease and ignored the security. The only way is for total security unless you are just doing it for show or to feel good about doing something.


No, I did not indicate that. But that's typical Wayne.

Let me know when you have a solution, write a book on it, and sought after to give presentations on it. That should be shortly. Wayne, a legend in his own mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:54 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
Quote:
Didn't you just indicate the use of Kevlar armor, armed guards and bullet resistant glass was not a reasonable cost? You remind me of a gun store owner once who spent good money for a high security door that could not easily be breached. It was still intact after they cleaned him out of guns. They went through the wall with ease and ignored the security. The only way is for total security unless you are just doing it for show or to feel good about doing something.


No, I did not indicate that. But that's typical Wayne.


Really? What did "not so much" mean after the sentence about "reasonable cost"? It is in the same paragraph so it appears to relate to the thought of cost. Also, what about the security door if the window beside it can be easily broken? They do not use plate glass in any of the schools with which I am familiar, but the glass can be broken if one is so inclined and has the means, such as a rifle or pistol, which leads back to the bullet resistance.

[quote="SiberD] Wayne, what I described would have worked to prevent what happened last week and at reasonable costs. Kevlar armor and armed guards, not so much. Your idea is........[/quote]


[quote="SiberD]And you call that a security system? Yeah, a security door...with a plate glass window in it or next to it that can be easily broken. Why have a security door then? Photo identification presented to the office staff. That should be done from the entrance via cameras and microphones, not in the office after the whacko is in the building. And as soon as a door or window is breached the whole school should be in lock down mode including the door locks on the classrooms I described. And I agree, an armed guard with a six shot wheel gun, or even a higher capacity semi-auto is indeed outgunned. Why wouldn't you arm them with at least an AR15 and high capacity semi-auto side arm?[/quote]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:51 am 
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SiberD wrote:
How about addressing school security? If you're going to keep schools as "gun free zones" you'd better make the schools "whacko free zones" also. Video monitoring of school entrances and only authorized personnel are granted entrance. Of course the entrances and exits would be unlocked from the inside. Make the so called school "lock downs" actual....lock downs? Complete with classroom locks that have to opened with a key from the outside but via a simple manual latch from inside. Windows and doors that have shatterproof glass.

Then maybe we should address all the violence children are immersed in day after day via the TV, movies, and especially video games. And all these kids that are on drugs for ADD, and all the SSRI's, like prozac, zoloft, cymbalta and paxil, for depression? My god, these drugs are given out like candy not by professional psychiatrists but by general practioners.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:51 am 
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I'm sorry, I left off the appropriate tags...

<sarc>Yeah, a security door...with a plate glass window in it or next to it that can be easily broken.</sarc>


And yeah, kevlar and security guards are rather expensive, bullet resistant and/or shatter proof not so much.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:05 pm 
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SiberD wrote:
I'm sorry, I left off the appropriate tags...

<sarc>Yeah, a security door...with a plate glass window in it or next to it that can be easily broken.</sarc>


And yeah, kevlar and security guards are rather expensive, bullet resistant and/or shatter proof not so much.


The bullet resistent glass required to protect against a .223 (5.56N) runs in the neighborhood of $100.00 sq. ft., which is about the cost of the Kevlar armor sheets for similar protection.

No glass in schools here are plate glass due to safety issues and I would assume that is a more national code as well. All of the glass is safety glass, which is harder to break and to penetrate if broken, but does not hold up against a weapon.

No guard means the staff is really outgunned when the security is breached as was the case in CT.

Quote:
And I agree, an armed guard with a six shot wheel gun, or even a higher capacity semi-auto is indeed outgunned. Why wouldn't you arm them with at least an AR15 and high capacity semi-auto side arm?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:12 pm 
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There was a good editorial in the CoSpgs paper. Guards, volunteer or paid, and numerous teachers given CCW training and also armed seems the best answer.
Foreigners calling the USA a "gun mad" nation are absurd. General training and a mental, written, and shooting test, also are good requirements. Limiting magazines to 13 or less (so my Para P 14 is OK!)
Texas town allows teachers to carry concealed guns
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22229 ... ealed-guns

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Last edited by Johhny Electriglide on Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Another opinion ...... :shock:

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/19/nationa ... d_setting/

As part of an NRO symposium called “Newtown Answers,” Charlotte Allen writes:

There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:41 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:29 am 
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animal-friendly wrote:
The issue of guns, violence, mental illness, etc., is very, very unique to the US. But you would not realize this unless you get out of that particular conditioning. The rest of the world shakes their head.


Uh, yeah.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html#ixzz2FADXPUFp

http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/564441/Crime-climbs-in-Australia-after-widespread-gun-ban.html?nav=18

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Not just the UK and Australia;
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/ ... ashington/
Quote:
Jamaica wasn't always the extremely violent country that it is today (see the figure here). Jamaica experienced large increases in murder rates since enacting a handgun bans in 1974. Since the gun ban, Jamaica’s murder rate has soared to become one of the highest in the world, currently at least double that of other Caribbean countries. Jamaica’s murder rate hasn’t sunk below 10 murders per 100,000 people since the gun ban went into effect.

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