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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Destroy the system that has killed all ecosystems.

Destroy the society that plunders, exploits and kills earth 365 days of the year and then celebrates Earth Day.

For several decades environmentalists have been warning modern society that ecosystems are getting destroyed - that consumerist lifestyle is not sustainable.

But modern society which was busy chasing progress, growth and development did not listen. It refused to believe there was any environmental crisis or problem. It said science and technology will always find a solution - if earth gets destroyed we will move on to another planet.

Impossible dreams were sold to people in the name of science and technology.

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

One space shuttle exploded during take off - another exploded on the return journey.

So far man has not been able to go beyond the moon. There is no other life sustaining ecosystem/ planet within the solar system. Outside the solar system planets and galaxies are millions of light years away - billions of light years away.

So when are we moving to a new home ?

Next year - or 5 years later ?


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Last edited by sushilydv on Sat May 30, 2009 9:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Well, some star systems may be a bit closer, but still pretty far off.
Clearly, we need to get our act together here before we move along.

Thanx for dropping in, Sushilydv. Hadn't heard from ya in so long.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:59 am 
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It is more than industrial society that destroys the mind and environment; it is overpopulation itself.

http://www.cosmosmith.com/human_population_crisis.htm

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:24 am 
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Johhny Electriglide wrote:
It is more than industrial society that destroys the mind and environment; it is overpopulation itself.

http://www.cosmosmith.com/human_population_crisis.htm


This issue was discussed earlier on this thread.

Overpopulation is a result of science, technology and industrialization.

The two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism. Science and Technology is responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800 - today it is 6.5 billion. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.

A lot of efforts have been made to control/ reduce population. There is one child policy in China. Most families in urban India are now having one/ two children. Other countries have also tried to check population growth. In the absence of these efforts world population would be much greater than 6.5 billion today.

An equivalent example does not exist for Overconsumerism.

The world has not made efforts to reduce consumerism.

All countries have been increasing Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP in the last 50 years. The number of consumer goods in most homes has been increasing over the last 50 years.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:46 pm 
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A couple things. World population is not 6.5 billion, it is 6.8 billion.
China had exemptions for farmers with its so-called one child policy, and the lowest TFR they got was 1.6 in 1986. Originally, their scientists wanted the Chinese population to top out at 1.1 to 1.2 billion then decline, to prevent eco-collapse. Chenyu reports the actual Chinese population at 1.5 billion now.
India has a TFR of 2.6 which could eventually put that country at a higher population than China, but with deforestation so complete and aquifers nearly dry, and extreme river pollution, and lack of dung fuel for cooking--they will probably crash even before Africa. Then China and other parts of Asia. Migrations from these areas of collapse will collapse other areas, until it is worldwide by the 2040s.
It was the start of using coal, then oil, along with decrease in predators and especially the self-predation of warfare, then all the technology allowing better health and much less infant mortality, fertilizers and irrigation on a massive scale, and machinery ripping up land and, with factories and power plants, throwing out huge amounts of pollution in the form of CO2 and mercury. Plastic developed then cast aside when used has caused huge trash gyres in the oceans and an average of 46,000 pieces of plastic in every square mile of ocean and sea on the entire planet.
People disconnected from nature, and reproduced like rats. Especially the ones who could not see ahead, the consequences of their actions---the stupid, the ignorant, the greedy, the ones with too much tolerance and compassion, and the ones who could not control their breeding lust.
Even before industrialization, the seeds above were in place. Except for in those tribes that were close to nature and could see ahead, and in those elsewhere who could do the same, the wise men. However, they are, and were, way too few in number and their percentage has gone down as the stimulated population insanely went up to way past overshoot.
Overcrowding leads to hostility, depression, and anxiety. It used to be cured with migrations to new lands, or wars over territory which killed off the weakest. People that started to get used to crowding were able to far exceed the long term carrying capacity of the region (even before industrialization made it worse), and crowding got worse to the point of even them getting the depression, anxiety, and/or hostility. Mercury and other pollutants also have effects on the brain, and so does malnutrition and mono-or incomplete diets. Various diseases cause mental anguish and forms of insanity, and so does lack of water.

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“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Well put, Mr. Electroglide, damn well put. I would have used rabbits, but rats are a better analogy.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:20 am 
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sushilydv wrote:
Johhny Electriglide wrote:
It is more than industrial society that destroys the mind and environment; it is overpopulation itself.

http://www.cosmosmith.com/human_population_crisis.htm


This issue was discussed earlier on this thread.

Overpopulation is a result of science, technology and industrialization.

The two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism. Science and Technology is responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800 - today it is 6.5 billion. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.

A lot of efforts have been made to control/ reduce population. There is one child policy in China. Most families in urban India are now having one/ two children. Other countries have also tried to check population growth. In the absence of these efforts world population would be much greater than 6.5 billion today.

An equivalent example does not exist for Overconsumerism.

The world has not made efforts to reduce consumerism.

All countries have been increasing Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP in the last 50 years. The number of consumer goods in most homes has been increasing over the last 50 years.

sushil_yadav
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Quote:
World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800 - today it is 6.5 billion. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly.


This may be one of the single most insane things I've ever read on this forum. Are you actually LAMENTING the success of modern medicine? Do you realize how much unnecessary human suffering, especially amongst children, has been prevented by things like vaccines, surgeries, and medicine? Only a true, hardcore environmentalist ideologue would say something this incredibly morally bankrupt. This kind of rhetoric is EXACTLY why the most radical of environmentalists are not taken seriously, much like the AR radicals are not taken seriously, amongst the majority of society. What will you do, sushilydv, when cures are eventually found for horrible scourges like cancer and AIDS? Will you lament it or celebrate it like most of the sane world?

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A lot of efforts have been made to control/ reduce population. There is one child policy in China.


Are you aware that China's "one child" policy has been a miserable failure in terms of human rights? Are you aware, for example, that forced abortions and forced sterilizations take place in China:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 36,00.html ? What do you think morally about things like forced abortions? Are you OK with that? Another effect of the "one child" policy in China has been the ever growing imbalance in the gender ratio in China: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508 .
Since sons are more valued than daughters in Chinese culture, girls are often quickly aborted in hopes of having a boy. This has created a problem that is, for one, causing China to commit a form of "demographic suicide" via a shortage of women and also has created a form of "gender genocide", that, along with policies such as forced abortion, amounts to a huge human rights, and more specifically women's rights, issue. So how about, sushilydv, are you willing to sacrifice human rights to "gaia" on the altar of population control?

Whether you like it or not, sushilydv, science and technology are here to stay. You can lament it all you want, and engage in all the regressive thinking you like, and post all the diatribes you like, but we will NOT be returning to living like cavemen no matter how much you may think such an idiotic notion would solve our problems. Indeed, quite the contrary is true. It will be the furthering of science that eventually solves our problems. We have already seen a lot of progress in just the past few years. With new technologies, things like cars, trains, trucks, and aircraft are becoming cleaner and more fuel efficient all the time. Appliances, computers, and the like, continue to be more energy efficient. Pollution controls have been put in place on things like power plants and other industries, and these will continue to improve as well. The answer is progress, not small-minded, "let's return to the stone age" regressive thinking.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:47 am 
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Grizzly Bear,

It seems you have genuine problem understanding simple language. In my previous post I have explained how population increased from 1 billion to 6.8 billion within a period of 200 - 250 years - how overpopulation and overconsumerism are a result of science, technology and industrialization. It is an analysis of how and why we landed in the present mess - got it this time?

I can understand why you got so worked up over the issue of science, technology and consumerism - it is quite easy to understand - you come from the land where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.

If China and India had not made efforts to check population it would be much greater than what it is today.

By the way what has your country done to check consumerism?

After the 9/11 incident your previous President asked Americans to resume shopping as soon as possible.

sushil_yadav


Last edited by sushilydv on Sat May 23, 2009 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:11 am 
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Quote:
It seems you have genuine problem understanding simple language. In my previous post I have explained how population increased from 1 billion to 6.8 billion within a period of 200 - 250 years - how overpopulation and overconsumerism are a result of science, technology and industrialization. It is an analysis of how and why we landed in the present mess - got it this time?

I can understand why you got so worked up in the context of science, technology and consumerism - it is quite easy to understand - you come from the land where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.

If China and India had not made efforts to check population it would be much greater than 6.8 billion.

By the way what has your country done to check consumerism?

Afte the 9/11 incident your previous President asked Americans to resume shopping as soon as possible.

sushil_yadav




Sorry bud, that dog just don't hunt. Stop playing artful dodger and answer the issues I raised. I'll ask them again since you have trouble being direct.

What do you think morally about population control that involves egregious human rights violations like that in China?

What do you think morally about the development of modern medicine? Does it reduce needless suffering of people? Is it a positive thing for the human race?

Which is more likely to solve current problems: continued development of science and technology OR regression into a stone-age type mentality and lifestyle?

Just answer the questions in a straightforward manner, please. The fact of the matter is, you seem to just want to post vitriolic rants about "the good old days" and play blame game, but you don't seem to want to discuss any pragmatic, equitable, solutions to that which you complain about. Ranting is cheap, sushilydv, and you do it by the boat load.

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:14 am 
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BTW, sushilydv, for all of your whining about technology, you sure do seem to enjoy posting diatribes on the internet an awful lot. Hypocrisy, thy name is sushilydv!

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:27 am 
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Don't try to avoid my question, Grizzly Bear.

What has your country done to check consumerism?

What has your country done about 5% of world population consuming 40% of resources?

sushil_yadav


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:19 am 
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America has done nothing to promote less consumption. If anything, the opposite is true.
The idea that having as many kids as you want is a "right" is ingrained in many, when in reality reproduction is a responsibility, not a right. Modern humans should be intelligent enough to see that with all the technical and scientific advances we have gone far beyond long tern carrying capacity, a term and situation any hunter should know, and these modern humans should adjust their reproduction to bring the total to long term sustainable at a decent standard of living. Unfortunately, the average human is not that intelligent, and our population has exactly followed the stimulated mammalian population crash curve.
It is not a human right to infringe on the survivability of the unborn future generations. It is stupid to think that technology can create resources out of nothing, or that science does not have plateaus and will always get us out of the situation we have gotten ourselves into.
Returning to a somewhat simpler life, and having the morality to think about those unborn children of the future is what I have done (see the other post). I have also sacrificed for my country fighting communism and supporting fighting the kill cult. We have cut our consumption down to 1/16th the footprint of the average American, and with only one child, the future footprint that is so critical to our species survival.
Modern humans, on average, are not really smart enough to see the future or care about more than their own lives and immediate family. This is why forced sterilizations have had to be used. People will not live with less impact without being forced to, and the trend is for more impact by places like China who want a better standard of living. The American standard of living has been falling for the middle class for over 25 years thanks to overpopulation allowed to invade or legally migrate to escape the overpopulation ruin they caused in their own countries. Thanks to corrupt politicians, mostly.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Industrial Society has been spreading blatant lies over the years.

"Green Industry", "Green Technology", "Ethical Consumerism", "Sustainable Development".

These are contradictory terms – these are oxymorons.
Industrialization can never be green – it is impossible.

You cannot save a person after you have killed him.
You cannot save ecosystems after you have killed them for making consumer goods.



When we make consumer goods we kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted. Industry kills Water.

Industries/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel - and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.



We have limited resources/ ecosystems on earth which is just 40,000 km in circumference.

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are.

This is common sense - plain common sense - which the so called smart, intelligent, advanced, civilized and developed Industrial Society does not possess.




We are alive because of ecosystems - we owe our very existence to ecosystems.

Industrial Society has destroyed most ecosystems within a span of 250 years after Industrial Revolution.

Industrial Society has destroyed necessary things [animals, trees, air, water and land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods].

Ecosystems are not consumer goods that can be manufactured, repaired or restored by MultiNational Companies in industries and factories.

The collapse has already happened for millions of other species. Most of them have been decimated.

Very soon it will be the turn of man to go.


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Last edited by sushilydv on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:02 am 
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In India, millions use the ground as a toilet, which rains wash into rivers, making them full of harmful bacteria which kills thousands daily. That is a lack of composting toilets, which are a technical invention. Millions do not use birth control there either, which is another technical invention. Miss-use of technology, over-breeding, over-tolerance, and over-compassion have been a big part of the drive of overpopulation and its demands which have ruined the biosphere.
It is not just industrial society that destroys itself. If industry used resources at their regeneration rate, recharge rate, and polluted at or below the planetary absorption rate---it would have stayed a positive thing.
It was miss-used with greed, and the demands of people who wanted irrigation water and clean drinking water, better heath care, then faster travel, electric lights, then electric devices, and powerful machinery to extract more resources without regard to the future or the depletion and pollution.
India, China, and Europe were all overpopulated before the industrial revolution and got worse after. Societies where people had become crowd tolerant and too compassionate and over-tolerant, already had the seeds of their own destruction in their minds. It allowed overpopulation to start its deadly course. The demands of this also started human inventiveness to start the industrial revolution which increased overpopulation, depletion, and pollution.
So human overcrowding was the start which led to inbred tolerance which was the genetic mental destruction that led to environmental destruction through numbers and industry. The original genetic makeup of humans had crowd intolerance for ecological reasons of survival developed over millions of years(it also kept diseases from affecting the whole population). When people got crowded they would either migrate or fight to the death over territory and resources, thus reducing population and crowding. They stayed in smaller village and tribal groups. Self predation was an evolutionary trait when predation by other animals, and disease wasn't enough to keep in ecological carrying capacity of a region, after the technology of spears was developed, making humans the top predator. Crowd intolerance developed in our evolution for ecological carrying capacity reasons, also, along with diseases would spread easier in crowded conditions.
What could have made it so people crowded together and stayed without migration and warfare to reduce population? I can only guess that it was a primitive religion that taught over-tolerance and over-compassion, and gave people peace when they should have felt the need to leave the crowd or make war. Crowds also led to famine and disease, which should have been seen by intelligent people as signs that crowding was not right. Unfortunately, the average people were just not quite intelligent enough, and crowding continued in many societies. Self predation was not great enough to prevent the overpopulation and further crowding which built slowly at first and accelerated with fossil fuels and the industrial revolution which feeds the madness that was started with over-tolerance, over-compassion, over-breeding, and the genetic change to crowd tolerance with peaceful religions and inventiveness to over-use the environment.

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“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle
“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:50 am 
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People disconnected from nature, and reproduced like rats. Especially the ones who could not see ahead, the consequences of their actions---the stupid, the ignorant, the greedy, the ones with too much tolerance and compassion, and the ones who could not control their breeding lust.
Even before industrialization, the seeds above were in place. Except for in those tribes that were close to nature and could see ahead, and in those elsewhere who could do the same, the wise men.


Quote:
There are still many wise people abiding with us today, and I am not referring exclusively to the academics; it's just that there voices get swamped by the swarm.


Overcrowding leads to hostility, depression, and anxiety. It used to be cured with migrations to new lands, or wars over territory which killed off the weakest.

Quote:
This is a strange sentence imo. Either that, or I may not understand what you are saying and meaning here. The hostility, depression and anxiety probably were the psychological impetus which lead to war and migration in the first place. Not really a cure, just an affect. War is psychotic and I have a hard time thinking of it as a means of population control. It does reduce population, of course, but that is an unconscious result of other forces.


People that started to get used to crowding were able to far exceed the long term carrying capacity of the region (even before industrialization made it worse), and crowding got worse to the point of even them getting the depression, anxiety, and/or hostility. Mercury and other pollutants also have effects on the brain, and so does malnutrition and mono-or incomplete diets. Various diseases cause mental anguish and forms of insanity, and so does lack of water.[/quote]

You seem to only post on the 'enviro issues' pages. Would you or have you looked at the 'animal issues' pages? I would love for you to add your slant to the Darwin postings which Ante began (but seems to have taken leave of ...)


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